Reported for theft by a manager

[George88]

Hello,

First, I've never posted here before and haven't had much to say about Angard Staffing or Royal Mail, despite having strong opinions of both. However, today I received a somewhat startling phone call from Angard, by a man named Matthew (I think he was a manager), explaining to me that I've been reported for theft by a manager at Royal Mail.

I know every criminal's first plea is "I'm innocent, honest!", but jesus f*****g christ, I am! I've never stolen a damned thing in my life and I'm not about to start now, with THE Royal Mail, for god's sake, with 4 managers walking around the floor watching us as well! I was told that I would be contacted on Tuesday (2nd April 2013) with more details on the "investigation". I feel like a criminal.

Anyway, I realise I'm a total nobody to everyone here and no one will likely care what my position is, but I would like to ask if anybody else has been wrongly accused of mail theft, either Angard Staffing or Royal Mail? Does anybody know how long these investigations take to complete and what they entail? Stating the obvious here given our economical climate, but I really can't afford to be out of work for long, and since I'm innocent it's just rubbing salt into the wound. If a worker is found guilty of theft (IMPOSSIBLE in my situation), does that result in a criminal record and jail time/fines?

Would appreciate advice and options, given I'm just an agency worker and have no real leeway with respect to my slave labour *cough* I mean job *cough*.


Cheers!

[barrowc]

That sounds strange. If Royal Mail staff are suspected of stealing or tampering with mail, Royal Mail's investigations branch (IB/POID/POSIS/whatever acronym they have this week) normally watch the staff via the cameras in the Mail Centre and apprehend them once they have evidence (often involving test packages which have been placed in the mail). If a manager saw someone actually stealing then the manager should be challenging that person on the spot and bringing in the investigations branch to interview the person.

What you're describing doesn't make sense. Telling you this way just gives you time to think of a cover story, dispose of any evidence etc. I would have expected the investigations branch to have interviewed you at work or at home immediately after any accusation was made. Stealing from the mail is a criminal offence and RM prosecute many people every year.

If you're called in for an interview then ask to bring a colleague in with you and ask the interviewer to explain what evidence RM have against you

[George88]

The call was from an "unknown" number and I was told Angard could not give me any more shifts until the investigation was completed, and that I would be contacted on Tuesday. I think I know what situation is in question, where I saw a white boxed, cheap looking modem standing out in a cage of brown Amazon packets. My work colleague jokingly said to" take it", and I foolishly, but very much in jest, held it under my hi-vis vest for a second as if to pretend I was pocketing it, then immediately put it in a york. We were fooling about, not stealing cheap goods. I looked up from the cage and the manager in question was watching me. He knows I didn't steal it. For one I don't have pockets big enough for the box and two, he watched me stick in a york! Everyone, including the other managers, think he's an idiot who doesn't have a clue, and now he may cost me my job!

As you say, he could easily come over and asked me to remove my vest and empty my pockets. I've been told in the past this manager will "go behind your back" and phone the agency rather than simply confront people, and has a reputation for cowardice. I've also noticed lately him and another manager have been staring my way for prolonged periods, watching me.

Do agency workers have any leeway when it comes to this kind of activity?

Thank you

[yabbadabbadoo]

How long had you been working there?
I've never heard of such a thing, but clearly they don't trust you (anymore).
I've no idea what you can do legally but, demand to speak to the manager in person, or someone higher up at the office would be the best option. Or alternatively get through to someone higher up in Angard and see if they can shed some light, this 'investigation' could go on for weeks/months for all you know and fat chance of getting any compensation for time off.

[Verging]

How long had you been working there?
I've never heard of such a thing, but clearly they don't trust you (anymore).
I've no idea what you can do legally but, demand to speak to the manager in person, or someone higher up at the office would be the best option. Or alternatively get through to someone higher up in Angard and see if they can shed some light, this 'investigation' could go on for weeks/months for all you know and fat chance of getting any compensation for time off.

If the person from Angard is who I think it is you cannot go any higher apart from the Directors.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

The manager has seen you tuck a packet under your clothing and take it out again. Despite you thinking of it as a joke, it seems they have taken it seriously.

What I think he is going to say, and I am afraid it won't help you, is that he saw you doing exactly what you said, but he believes it is reasonable assumption, that if you had not seen him watching you, you may have taken the item permanently. Its going to be difficult to prove otherwise.

Is it a fair assumption - probably not, but they don't have to be fair they just have to show their actions are reasonable given the evidence at the time. I am afraid that although you may have thought it was a joke, it was at best an ill thought out and perhaps a little naive.

The good news is that if they did not escort you off the premises, or get the security people to search you or your property since the incident then its unlikely they will prosecute you. Most likely they will just dismiss you and not employ you again.

As to any action you can take on being falsely accused - the AWR does not apply in this case, and ANYONE can be dismissed for any reason but they cannot claim unfair dismissal until they have been employed for 2 years (unless there is a clear case of discrimination).

Its not good news I am offering, but it is still just an opinion, I hope you get it all sorted out despite the gloomy nature of my response.

[George88]

Thanks for your replies.

I've been with Angard for about 5 months now. Just to make it clear I put the item in question in the York and returned to get more packets before looking up to see the manager. CCTV will clearly show no theft or Ill-will was intended.

The man (Matthew) from Angard sounded Irish, but that's all I remember.

Your time is appreciated, thank you.

[Tman]

I reckon TBT has it right. To the person watching you it most likely seemed as if you only put it back because he saw you "take" it, and "I was mucking about" doesn't really hack it as an excuse.
On the bright side it seems too late to attempt prosecution, but sadly I don't suppose Angard will employ you again, which maybe was the true purpose of the call, ie to tell you that?
Shame the tw*t who advised you to "take it" wasn't going as well though.

[fishtank]

CCTV will clearly show no theft or Ill-will was intended.

All CCTV will show is you picking up a packet,sticking it under your vest and then taking it out again and putting it in a York.
As far as I'm aware it can't read your intentions..Ill or otherwise.
The footage is far more likely to hang you than save you,especially as by the time you see it,it will have been cropped just to show the "relevant" parts.

I'm not judging your guilt,It's doubtful you would have bothered to come on here if you had been guilty but in this case I would advise you to move on and accept that a moment of "thoughtlessness" has cost you your job.
It could have been much worse,you could have been standing up in court facing the CCTV image of you stuffing something in your jacket trying to convince the Judge you were just larking about.

[motch]

CCTV will clearly show no theft or Ill-will was intended.

All CCTV will show is you picking up a packet,sticking it under your vest and then taking it out again and putting it in a York.
As far as I'm aware it can't read your intentions..Ill or otherwise.
The footage is far more likely to hang you than save you,especially as by the time you see it,it will have been cropped just to show the "relevant" parts.

I'm not judging your guilt,It's doubtful you would have bothered to come on here if you had been guilty but in this case I would advise you to move on and accept that a moment of "thoughtlessness" has cost you your job.
It could have been much worse,you could have been standing up in court facing the CCTV image of you stuffing something in your jacket trying to convince the Judge you were just larking about.[/quote]

for that you'd have to leave the building/premises and then be stopped surely ? a bit like shop lifting from a shop?

[fishtank]

for that you'd have to leave the building/premises and then be stopped surely ? a bit like shop lifting from a shop?

Probably,but if something had gone missing,like an iPad...who knows?
You get your house turned over in front of the neighbours,they find an iPad,it's yours but who keeps receipts?
Definitely not something I'd like to test out for the sake of some larking about.

[UnhappyGremlin]

I think the point FT was making is that, if/when CCTV is presented as evidence by his accusers, it will only show the bit where the item was out under his jacket and not the rest. If he was to request the whole tape, it'll possibly turn out that that part has mysteriously disappeared. With the remaining evidence, they'll say 'if you did it then, how many more times have you done it and not been caught?' RM always provide/demonstrate evidence in a manner that proves guilt, even if the accused is actually innocent, and also (at least in my case) will deny access to any information/files/recordings etc. that can help with your defence/prove innocence.

It does sound like a practical joke, and I don't doubt that many who post on these forums, including myself, have done something similar, a laugh and a practical joke with workmates. I would suspect this is one of two things. Maybe the manager in question is trying to make a name for his/herself in the eyes of their superiors( ), or maybe the chap reported for this offence, well his face doesn't fit i.e. the manager has just taking a disliking to him, and took the first chance to get rid.

But, I agree with motch in that, realistically, if all information provided by the OP is true and genuine, and I have no reason to doubt it, then there really is no proof that and misdeed(s) have taken place. Unfortunately, in RM, innocence won't/doesn't stop cases like these being pursued relentlessly. Unfair but true.

[Tman]

But, I agree with motch in that, realistically, if all information provided by the OP is true and genuine, and I have no reason to doubt it, then there really is no proof that and misdeed(s) have taken place. Unfortunately, in RM, innocence won't/doesn't stop cases like these being pursued relentlessly. Unfair but true.

There is no proof, but that's not the point here. The manager is doing exactly what he should be doing, ie preventing possible mail theft, which is presumably what he suspects he saw. Nothing to do with making a name or face not fitting etc, but just doing his job.
Don't know about any relentless pursuing, but realistically no more shifts in RM via Angard.

[UnhappyGremlin]

But, I agree with motch in that, realistically, if all information provided by the OP is true and genuine, and I have no reason to doubt it, then there really is no proof that and misdeed(s) have taken place. Unfortunately, in RM, innocence won't/doesn't stop cases like these being pursued relentlessly. Unfair but true.

There is no proof, but that's not the point here. The manager is doing exactly what he should be doing, ie preventing possible mail theft, which is presumably what he suspects he saw. Nothing to do with making a name or face not fitting etc, but just doing his job.
Don't know about any relentless pursuing, but realistically no more shifts in RM via Angard.

How do you know? Do you have proof? There is absolutely no way you, or anyone, can say what was in the mind of the guy who is accused of theft, at the time he did what he did, nor can you say what was in the mind of the manager when he did what he did. The vast majority on here agree there was no possible theft, it was a lark, albeit one that looks costly. But you're right in one sense, there is no proof of theft. But theft is the charge/accusation levied at him, according to the OP. So that is the point here.

[Tman]

How do you know? Do you have proof? There is absolutely no way you, or anyone, can say what was in the mind of the guy who is accused of theft, at the time he did what he did, nor can you say what was in the mind of the manager when he did what he did.

I don't "know" or have "proof" of anything here,nor do I know what was in any of their minds, but whatever ulterior motives you may wish to ascribe to the manager, in reality he's following the only course of action possible. The OP says he was larking about and we have no reason to doubt that, but whenever there's a doubt about someone's honesty, you think RM (or most other employers, come to that) would give them the benefit of the doubt?
There aren't many reasons for (almost) instant dismissal in RM, but theft is one of them, as I'm sure you appreciate. For an Angard employee, getting rid is even quicker and easier.