8th april joint statement

[dvbuk55]

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying but if you mean managers aren't going to refuse unpaid work from their staff then they are going to have to.

In the same way that educating and talking to members will make them abide by doing the job as it should be done - if they don't, what makes you think managers will? Do you think they will have a big stick raised to them if they are producing the results that RM want? This is a complex problem and one that is not easily solved but one thing is certain, the behaviour of the few is damaging the future of those who do the job properly and it should be stopped by whatever means is necessary to "educate" the offenders.

[clashcityrocker]

Do you think they will have a big stick raised to them if they are producing the results that RM want?

Failing revisions isn't the result RM want.
And I did hear of a line manager being put back in a blue shirt for allowing continued early starters after being told not to.

[clashcityrocker]

Look at the problem from another viewpoint.

Postie A comes in to work 1 hour early. He finishes on time. Is he entitled to 1 hour overtime?

[dvbuk55]

Look at the problem from another viewpoint.

Postie A comes in to work 1 hour early. He finishes on time. Is he entitled to 1 hour overtime?

Only if he is asked to come in by a manager and believe me they aren't going to be paying overtime on a delivery that has been revised under BT2010 and found to be correct according to the tools used.

[clashcityrocker]

Look at the problem from another viewpoint.

Postie A comes in to work 1 hour early. He finishes on time. Is he entitled to 1 hour overtime?

Only if he is asked to come in by a manager and believe me they aren't going to be paying overtime on a delivery that has been revised under BT2010 and found to be correct according to the tools used.

So as a rep, if a member came to you saying they worked 9 hours but management were only paying for 8, you would support the management decision and make no effort to ensure your colleague was paid for the hours they worked?

[dvbuk55]

Look at the problem from another viewpoint.

Postie A comes in to work 1 hour early. He finishes on time. Is he entitled to 1 hour overtime?

Only if he is asked to come in by a manager and believe me they aren't going to be paying overtime on a delivery that has been revised under BT2010 and found to be correct according to the tools used.

So as a rep, if a member came to you saying they worked 9 hours but management were only paying for 8, you would support the management decision and make no effort to ensure your colleague was paid for the hours they worked?

Absolutely - because there are two issues - one being he wasn't requested to come in and the second being he was starting an hour before his start time - lessons need to be learned clash. What you are suggesting is that the members in the office decide how the office is run and not the management and the hours required for the duty are set by the management - if they say it is 8 then it is but if it cannot be completed in 8 then there are two options work over your time or cut off. Starting your duty an hour early is definitely NOT the answer.

[clashcityrocker]

Now you have 2 problems:
1. Your colleague will claim he is a victim of B&H as he isn't being paid for the hours he worked.
Why should he pay £3 for you not to support him?
2. Your office will appear more efficient than it actually is. You cannot lower your EP and the EP of your office will become the upper decile that others have to aspire to.
Your office is now going to have to run with reduced resources when it isn't really coping now.

The whole thing is fraudulent. The whole charade needs to be addressed. The early starts needs to be stopped by managers.

[dvbuk55]

Now you have 2 problems:
1. Your colleague will claim he is a victim of B&H as he isn't being paid for the hours he worked.
Why should he pay £3 for you not to support him?
2. Your office will appear more efficient than it actually is. You cannot lower your EP and the EP of your office will become the upper decile that others have to aspire to.
Your office is now going to have to run with reduced resources when it isn't really coping now.

The whole thing is fraudulent. The whole charade needs to be addressed. The early starts needs to be stopped by managers.

You miss the point entirely - he is not being paid because he hasn't been requested to work overtime - which is set by the management and NOT by the individual and why on earth would any idiot work for nothing which is precisely what he would be doing - if he came in on time he wouldn't be affecting the EP would he.

What would be B&H is if he WAS requested to work overtime and wasn't paid. The early start is not being requested by a manager and if the individual went to the manager and said "I came in an hour early today and want paying" the manager would quite rightly say "Tough, you're not being paid and if you come in early off your own bat without pay - more fool you". As a rep what would your case be?

[clashcityrocker]

As a rep what would your case be?

He isn't being paid for the hours he is working.

[hans solo]

quite amazing really that such a simple little thing like starting at the proper and set time causes so much friction and bad feeling amongst everyone .
ffs get a grip look at whats happening all over bedroom tax ffs
this is our fault standards we set ourselves work for free
if your so set against working your hours proper f***ing jack it and come in and do it all for free
thats why your bosses , the ones above them their bosses get all their bonuses at our ,your expense
thats why gvmt can cut jobs and service your fault

[fishtank]

As a rep what would your case be?

He isn't being paid for the hours he is working.

I'm not sure where you're going with this Clash.
We don't operate a flexi-time system as a rule.
You either start on your time or you are authorised to start before your time and get paid for it.
There is no third option where you decide off your own back to start early and then run to the rep because you obviously won't be paid for it.
I agree that the early starts have to be stopped but not by the conduct code and certainly not with our "input".
What do I do if I support management conducting members for starting early and then have to represent those members at their conduct meetings.
Sorry guys it's for the overall good of the office?

I don't give a f**k about you,your wife or your kids.
All wars have casualties,that sort of thing?

[hans solo]

As a rep what would your case be?

He isn't being paid for the hours he is working.

I'm not sure where you're going with this Clash.
We don't operate a flexi-time system as a rule.
You either start on your time or you are authorised to start before your time and get paid for it.
There is no third option where you decide off your own back to start early and then run to the rep because you obviously won't be paid for it.
I agree that the early starts have to be stopped but not by the conduct code and certainly not with our "input".
What do I do if I support management conducting members for starting early and then have to represent those members at their conduct meetings.
Sorry guys it's for the overall good of the office?

I don't give a f**k about you,your wife or your kids.
All wars have casualties,that sort of thing?

its the f***ing mgmt who have to get conducted

[hans solo]

4 words gents apply
ACCEPT NOTHING
QUESTION EVERYTHING

[dvbuk55]

its the f***ing mgmt who have to get conducted

Yep I think we've been here before - here is a manager who is producing the end product under budget because in his office there are a bunch of nutters who come in on a daily basis, 30 mins, 40 mins, an hour earlier than their start time and work for nothing. Also amongst that group are people who decide not to use LCTs because it slows them down and they are joined by yet another group who decide not to take a break because they can't finish on time In the meantime the manager has by no effort of his own saved a sh*t load of money and you think he is going to be conducted for the stupidity of those people who, despite every effort, still thinks it's their responsibility to see that the system/revision works and refuse to do the job properly.

[fishtank]

its the f***ing mgmt who have to get conducted

....but that's not likely to happen hans,in fact the unfortunate truth is a manager is more likely to get sacked for implementing this because of what it will do to his/her budget.
So where does this leave us?
Back where we started unfortunately.