8th april joint statement

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Would the same attitude apply if you lived in a road with a 20 mile limit and some dong kept racing down it at 60

no

Reducto absurdum - never expected that from you.

I'll go the other way, would you report someone for dropping litter.

You can't apply the same argument to every position its not real life.

Litter dropping - its an eyesore and shouldn't happen but reporting it...... not worth the trouble.

Speeding 60mph in a 20mph zone - thats putting other lives in danger, usually kids if its 20mph - Yep no problem with reporting that - or drink driving.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

garbage again,

What is, please explain

you are tying yourself up in knots here ,

I disagree - you are so blinded by your point of view that you're not looking at the rest of the posts I am putting up where in fact I am agreeing with you except for us helping them to be punished.

so how many years have folks been doing the job wrong and causing others to be bullied and challenged by management because they wont do the same thing and you say educate them looooooooooooooooool ,they do not listen!

So you disagree with bullying when you are the target, but if someone is doing something you disagree with its okay.

they dont do it because they are bullied they do it to get home earlier which is wrong!

Some do as you suggest, some do it to keep off the radar, so do it to mask their own failings, some do it out of dishonesty - there are many reason why people dothe things that they do - just like everything in life. What ever excuse the give ITS WRONG.

if you cannot work until your finish time you leave! dont take the job if you cannot work the hours,

Sounds a lot like a manager saying "If you don't like it leave" - thats wrong from them so its wrong coming from us as well. Although I would agree about not starting if you can't work the hours thats common sense after all, however most of the early starter at my place started long before these changes came in, and its difficult for them to change.

the runners who come in over an hour before their time and make all us postmen trying to safeguard our jobs should be put under pressure not us to do it wrong like those fools!

Yes put under pressure no problem with that, its part of educating them after all. But I don't want to help the bosses conduct them as it its just causes divides and makes enemies.

What I am concerned about is that because you disagree with the tactics I support when I am against everything you are against, you still see me as siding with them, nothing is farther from the truth - we disagree only on tactics and grassing to a manager is not in my make up.

[gb93]

I think this thread is only discussing one side of the joint statement & the indoor flow WCM methods which it is intended to support.
Im sure the bits RM really support wont go down to well with the "lets conduct them brigade"

[dvbuk55]

Well I'm a great believer in the stick - you definitely need a deterrent, talk and education produces what - more talk?

[halfull]

Well I'm a great believer in the stick - you definitely need a deterrent, talk and education produces what - more talk?

well said again! atleast some of us understand we need to do job right to protect jobs.

[halfull]

garbage again,

What is, please explain

you are tying yourself up in knots here ,

I disagree - you are so blinded by your point of view that you're not looking at the rest of the posts I am putting up where in fact I am agreeing with you except for us helping them to be punished.

so how many years have folks been doing the job wrong and causing others to be bullied and challenged by management because they wont do the same thing and you say educate them looooooooooooooooool ,they do not listen!

So you disagree with bullying when you are the target, but if someone is doing something you disagree with its okay.

they dont do it because they are bullied they do it to get home earlier which is wrong!

Some do as you suggest, some do it to keep off the radar, so do it to mask their own failings, some do it out of dishonesty - there are many reason why people dothe things that they do - just like everything in life. What ever excuse the give ITS WRONG.

if you cannot work until your finish time you leave! dont take the job if you cannot work the hours,

Sounds a lot like a manager saying "If you don't like it leave" - thats wrong from them so its wrong coming from us as well. Although I would agree about not starting if you can't work the hours thats common sense after all, however most of the early starter at my place started long before these changes came in, and its difficult for them to change.

the runners who come in over an hour before their time and make all us postmen trying to safeguard our jobs should be put under pressure not us to do it wrong like those fools!

Yes put under pressure no problem with that, its part of educating them after all. But I don't want to help the bosses conduct them as it its just causes divides and makes enemies.

What I am concerned about is that because you disagree with the tactics I support when I am against everything you are against, you still see me as siding with them, nothing is farther from the truth - we disagree only on tactics and grassing to a manager is not in my make up.

so you agree with me then! atlast! i have not said i want people bullied just told by management they will be conducted for coming in early,working through breaks and running round which all fall under breaking h&s besides the fact it wrecks the job in the long run with doms watching what time we get back! If the conduct code is the punishment it will soon stop. If we all do job right there will be no need for anyone to be bullied, you are pointing at bulling as a way to deflect your earlier posts which pointed to you accepting some reasons are valid to do the job wrong even though you are backtracking now which is ok because you are right to agree with me,people do get bullied in my office when a manager says well he got back 45mins early and you are booking ot/cutting off so you are not up to standard so you must be tested 1st thing in the morning etc! do the job right! End Of.

[fishtank]

Well I'm a great believer in the stick - you definitely need a deterrent, talk and education produces what - more talk?

But it's not our stick DV and members should remember who wields the stick and the indiscriminate way it often gets wielded.
One minute members are moaning about management bullying and harassment,the next they want punitive measures implemented because it suits them and because it's someone else....and if we're honest there is more than a hint of retribution involved.

Starting early and skipping breaks is stupid and destructive but it's not a matter for the conduct code unless you believe that management should be allowed to use the conduct code on any issue they please...

Which issue next...performance?

[dvbuk55]

Well I'm a great believer in the stick - you definitely need a deterrent, talk and education produces what - more talk?

But it's not our stick DV and members should remember who wields the stick and the indiscriminate way it often gets wielded.
One minute members are moaning about management bullying and harassment,the next they want punitive measures implemented because it suits them and because it's someone else....and if we're honest there is more than a hint of retribution involved.

Starting early and skipping breaks is stupid and destructive but it's not a matter for the conduct code unless you believe that management should be allowed to use the conduct code on any issue they please...

Which issue next...performance?

Well I think more in terms of those members who do not run round like headless chickens who are under the cosh because they are NOT coming in early, are taking a break, are using the equipment as defined and ARE being questioned about THEIR performance levels - at some point someone either RM, the CWU or as is so often the case the members themselves must rectify what is clearly a problem.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

or as is so often the case the members themselves must rectify what is clearly a problem.

Thats the only difference between the 4 of us, and no backtracking by me or anyone, . Apparently your goodself and halfull both believe its acceptable for CWU members to police and help management discipline the early starters etc, I and FT think helping management to conduct them is one step too far, and that education or talking them round is better.

We are all taking steps to "rectify" the problem and we all agree that there is a problem, its just one point that we differ on.


(Hope I am not putting words in your mouth FT and sorry for jumping in to your discussion)

[hubbahubba]

Good thread this,and although it doesn't affect me directly,there are similar things happening in MC's from time to time.
I don't agree with shopping your fellow worker,but on the other hand if someones actions (coming in early etc),are putting pressure on people who do the job the "right" way,surely some form of conduct code is in order.Nothng as harsh as a sacking or such,but enough to make the person nvolved think about their actions in a more serious light,and not just maybe,their own self interests.

At the end of the day,someone cutting corners to make a few minutes,or quite often a lot more,has got to be wrong and needs clamping down on if it is having a negative,and often stessful impact on the honest Joe's....

[UnhappyGremlin]

I think most people who use this forum will and do agree that people shouldn't be doing unpaid work, should take their breaks, shouldn't be cutting corners etc. etc. I think the point trying to be made is that, if any of us try to stop people from doing this it could get out of hand quite easily, and therefore may result in people being conduct coded for B&H. It wouldn't be too difficult for actions to be misconstrued as intimidation etc.

It's fine to have a quiet word, point them in the right direction. But that's as far as I would go. Try to get them to see it from our point of view. But to enforce or police this, it's not my job, and any attempt may end up costing people theirs.

Maybe the union, from a national standpoint, could produce a letter to members, a standardised one, that local Reps could print out and place on all sorting frames as a reminder to staff, periodically. Every 2 months or so, for example.

[clashcityrocker]

The simple answer is any manager who allows it to continue should be conducted.
This is their stick. Let them wield it in their own court.

[dvbuk55]

The simple answer is any manager who allows it to continue should be conducted.
This is their stick. Let them wield it in their own court.

Well yes it is - but lets just say you have a gardener that comes round to weed, feed & mow and keeps your garden tidy and won't take money - would you tell him to go away

[clashcityrocker]

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying but if you mean managers aren't going to refuse unpaid work from their staff then they are going to have to.
Revisions fail if the true position (efficiency) of the office isn't properly evaluated at the start.
When revisions fail then the problems with B&H begin.

If both sides (CWU and RM) want the revisions to succeed then we have to get things right.
If senior managers are telling DOMs to do that, then that's what they will have to do, and if they don't it is the reps job to flag that up.
And if a manager or two did lose his job over this issue, who will shed any tears?

[fishtank]

If both sides (CWU and RM) want the revisions to succeed then we have to get things right.

That's a nice idea clash but we all know that Royal Mail's idea of success does not gel with ours,it never has and anyone who tells you different is lying.

You know what goes on at conference calls and you know that Doms will do anything including intimidation and lying to stay off the DSMs naughty list.
It's inconceivable that these same managers will implement a system that will immediately reduce the office EP and increase spend.
They would be as well painting a target on their back.
As for the DSM,the same applies with relation to the Regional Director,my sector is failing are usually the last words a DSM says in the job.
Let's be honest...would you?