Steve Cameron's letter

[clashcityrocker]

..... an office could be on paper 100BSi but to make that office work, people come in early , work their meal breaks and don't book overtime.

(And don't use the correct delivery methods.)
Or the base information (RCS) isn't correct.
This is the only way an office can appear to be working at 100bsi.

75 bsi is the recommended rate because 75 bsi means for every hour you are paid you will give 60 minutes work.
100bsi means for every hour you are paid they are expecting 75 minutes work.
You don't do that without an incentive. No wonder there are performance issues.

Job & Finish was an incentive to work harder and most offices probably still have a higher bsi on Saturday as people want an earlier finish.
But there is no incentive to give more than 60 minutes work for 60 minutes pay.

[fishtank]

But there is no incentive to give more than 60 minutes work for 60 minutes pay.

No but there is a stick.
In some cases members are coming in early in an attempt to beat the system and finish early but in a lot of cases they are doing it out of fear,job insecurity,low self esteem,outside commitments or simply a wish to stay off management's radar.
Royal Mail has built the perfect resourcing model to promote bullying and harassment and squeeze 75 minutes work from 60 minutes.

How are members supposed to know how long a duty will take them under park&loop?,if they cut off and finish early they are threatened with wilful delay,if they bring mail back they are threatened with wilful delay,if they can't work over what do they do?
They come in early and work through their break.

That's flexing up for you..if a rep doesn't know his/her way around the IWT or traffic figures cannot be trusted.or there is no rep.or the rep is poor.or it's the rep's day off.or the rep has no support from branch or basically any scenario that isn't perfect.....members do not stand a chance.
The whole delivery side of BT2010 is an absolute embarrassment at the moment.

[dvbuk55]

You make some good points ft. There is also the Part Time element. The figure for the FT/PT ratio is still not forthcoming and there's the rub. RM has a large compliant part time work force, always having the carrot dangled of full time, overtime, permanent contract. I have always felt that the union under estimates the damage uncontrolled part time employment does to the union.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Yes progress was made draft exchanged a further meeting tomorrow.

As a Certain A Harris once said

"Here we go, once more round the Mulberry Bush"

[Martin Walsh]

It is very easy to sit on the outside and criticise those in the negotiations.

What are we meant to do ? Other then attempt to get a statement which pins royal mail to the certain issues. Anyone who believes you get agreements straight away in talks or by shouting or posting criticism on a board have not really been involved in negotiations.

If we get an agreement today , it will be put to our reps on Friday. So we are answerable for any agreement.

[fishtank]

I think the point is dingo,in the present climate,with the present management structure what is yet another agreement really worth?

[TrueBlueTerrier]

It is very easy to sit on the outside and criticise those in the negotiations.

Your right it is, but then as I pay subs to the CWU I believe it is my right to be critical. Negotiators should recognise they will get grief whatever they do, however ignoring criticism or becoming defensive over it will help no one.

What are we meant to do ? Other then attempt to get a statement which pins royal mail to the certain issues. Anyone who believes you get agreements straight away in talks or by shouting or posting criticism on a board have not really been involved in negotiations.

If we get an agreement today , it will be put to our reps on Friday. So we are answerable for any agreement.

FT is partly right

I think the point is dingo,in the present climate,with the present management structure what is yet another agreement really worth?

However,its also an expression of frustration that Royal Mail seem to be playing the good cop/bad cop routine AGAIN, and the 3 cup switch trick again. So the mulberry bush quotation is aimed more at Royal Mail rather than the Union.

[dvbuk55]

I think the point is dingo,in the present climate,with the present management structure what is yet another agreement really worth?

Another day sat round the table pretending to be earth shakers and movers rather than just making up the numbers Any agreement no matter how hard won will last only as long as it takes RM to break it ............and then what................more sitting round the table............what was that BT advert oh yes "It's good to talk".............well it must certainly be better than another humdrum day dreaming of glories past.

[RTP]

Not quite an office could be on paper 100BSi but to make that office work people come in early , work their meal breaks and don't book overtime.

The reality is that there are range of offices some who don't work in their postcode area , different mix of mail , more firms then residential. More part timers .

What the disagreement was that Royal Mail were insisting that every office had to have a revison based on 100 BSi structure but nowhere in the national agreement does it say you have to work at 100 BSi.

Yes sometimes you have to say no and make a stand at local , area or Divisonal level. Otherwise Royal Mail will attempt to introduce what they want knowing there is no resistance. Fair maybe not but that is what happens.

You still never really answered his question, which is what I was adhering to as well. Yes we understand all the stuff about not coming in early etc, and that larger offices will not work as efficiently as smaller offices, but what are the union going to do about those offices already on 100bsi. Are they going to force royal mail to revisit the bsi in these offices and bring it down to 75 or 85bsi (depending on the office size), so that everyone is more equal and on a level playing field with regards fair and achievable workloads, or or they going to leave a section of the membership to sink?

[dvbuk55]

Not quite an office could be on paper 100BSi but to make that office work people come in early , work their meal breaks and don't book overtime.

The reality is that there are range of offices some who don't work in their postcode area , different mix of mail , more firms then residential. More part timers .

What the disagreement was that Royal Mail were insisting that every office had to have a revison based on 100 BSi structure but nowhere in the national agreement does it say you have to work at 100 BSi.

Yes sometimes you have to say no and make a stand at local , area or Divisonal level. Otherwise Royal Mail will attempt to introduce what they want knowing there is no resistance. Fair maybe not but that is what happens.

You still never really answered his question, which is what I was adhering to as well. Yes we understand all the stuff about not coming in early etc, and that larger offices will not work as efficiently as smaller offices, but what are the union going to do about those offices already on 100bsi. Are they going to force royal mail to revisit the bsi in these offices and bring it down to 75 or 85bsi (depending on the office size), so that everyone is more equal and on a level playing field with regards fair and achievable workloads, or or they going to leave a section of the membership to sink?

I think I can answer that RTP - any future agreements, just like the last one, will NOT be retrospective and any tools in operation at the time of a revision will stand and any amendments will not be applied to a completed revision.

[RTP]

Correct and that is where the union are going to have big problems with regards to getting disillusioned members back on board.

The horse has bolted, so do you try and catch it or do you let it wonder off into the sunset. Or to put it another way, if you were out walking your dog in the country and it got lost, do you at least hang around for a few hours in the hope that it returns to were it last saw you. Failing that do you go back to that place for a week or two every day and see if it turns up or do you just not try and do nothing and leave the poor sod to fend for itself, because you're alright and can go back to your nice comfy warm home.

[fishtank]

Correct and that is where the union are going to have big problems with regards to getting disillusioned members back on board.

The horse has bolted, so do you try and catch it or do you let it wonder off into the sunset. Or to put it another way, if you were out walking your dog in the country and it got lost, do you at least hang around for a few hours in the hope that it returns to were it last saw you. Failing that do you go back to that place for a week or two every day and see if it turns up or do you just not try and do nothing and leave the poor sod to fend for itself, because you're alright and can go back to your nice comfy warm home.

If the dog pays your wages you better get out there and start looking.

[RTP]

We all pay the same and get paid the same, that's the thing.

[Martin Walsh]

This is a weird debate. We have pulled away from any revisons talks or activity and forced Royal Mail into agreeing to abide by the terms of the agreement and various other issues and yet we get criticism for standing our ground and not allowing Royal Mail to bully us or break the national agreement. It really is a funny old world.

Fish I can understand the question and statement will this just be another agreement that Royal Mail will break. However we have something which they need and that is agreement on revisons and if they break this one then they will not get another revison. This has forced Royal Mail to agree to honour the national agreement. What other alternative was their do nothing and allow Royal Mail to do what they want ? Well we were not prepared to do that.

Now let's look at the BSI issue in context cause it not as simple as saying that an office is at 100 and another office is at 75. It's the measurement which is based on averages and not Indivduals unlike some other industries.

The out put of geo route is first set at an optimum of 100Bsi then manuel adjustments are taken into account which includes attendance calls , time locks , traffic , welfare breaks etc. No office at the end of that is at 100 BSI.

The indoor element is different and depends on the size of office , the mix of firms , the start times , the type of mail , amount of packets , whether you have secondary sorting , amount of redirections and again the system is based on averages. This is why there is a range of performances across the UK no two offices are alike.

No I don't believe Royal Mail will put in hours to bring someone down from say 100 on the indoor as their next step is to move to the upper decile.

[RTP]

This is a weird debate. We have pulled away from any revisons talks or activity and forced Royal Mail into agreeing to abide by the terms of the agreement and various other issues and yet we get criticism for standing our ground and not allowing Royal Mail to bully us or break the national agreement. It really is a funny old world.

Fish I can understand the question and statement will this just be another agreement that Royal Mail will break. However we have something which they need and that is agreement on revisons and if they break this one then they will not get another revison. This has forced Royal Mail to agree to honour the national agreement. What other alternative was their do nothing and allow Royal Mail to do what they want ? Well we were not prepared to do that.

Now let's look at the BSI issue in context cause it not as simple as saying that an office is at 100 and another office is at 75. It's the measurement which is based on averages and not Indivduals unlike some other industries.

The out put of geo route is first set at an optimum of 100Bsi then manuel adjustments are taken into account which includes attendance calls , time locks , traffic , welfare breaks etc. No office at the end of that is at 100 BSI.

The indoor element is different and depends on the size of office , the mix of firms , the start times , the type of mail , amount of packets , whether you have secondary sorting , amount of redirections and again the system is based on averages. This is why there is a range of performances across the UK no two offices are alike.

No I don't believe Royal Mail will put in hours to bring someone down from say 100 on the indoor as their next step is to move to the upper decile.

Thanks for replying dingo.

So in essence, those offices that have signed off for 100bsi, but have the manual interventions etc aren't in effect quite up to 100bsi and will be left alone in terms of future revisions, but lapsing will still rear it's head,

Those offices that are on 65bsi will have royal mail coming back at them in the future for more revisions in order to get those offices they see as under performing working towards the upper decile of 100bsi.


In other words, all you have done is delay the inevitable. Is that correct?