lapsing, some advice needed

[fishtank]

Fish, page 4 (or maybe section 4) of the Pay and Modernisation agreement states that a working group would be setup to discuss change to monthly pay and BANKING OF HOURS at a later date. I don't think this was ever implemented because the problems with the P&M Agreement became apparent very early on and led to the strikes of 2009. If this is the case then how can Management ever relate the Variation of Hours Agreement which includes the swings and roundabouts clause to banking or clawback of hours.

Banking hours,although similar is technically different to swings and roundabouts.
Managements perception of swings and roundabouts was to balance daily fluctuations in traffic to pull back some of the time members were gaining in early finishes and use it to reduce pressure overtime.
You finish 10 minutes early one day and 10 minutes late the next...you don't claim,sounds fair enough but how do you measure it,log it,enforce it,reciprocate it...it would probably be a disaster.

The plan for banking hours was to replace overtime almost entirely with something resembling the management TOIL system over a much longer period where you may or may not have had the choice of taking it as pay or time off.

You're right...no agreement was ever reached on banking hours but "swings and roundabouts" is part of P&M2007 and BT2010 does state....This agreement reaffirms the 2007 Pay and Modernisation Agreement.

Our area has always rejected anything to do with swings and roundabouts for two reasons,firstly we haven't a clue what it really means and secondly...neither do Royal Mail.
Other areas have negotiated some forms of clawback.

[clashcityrocker]

Our area has always rejected anything to do with swings and roundabouts for two reasons,firstly we haven't a clue what it really means and secondly...neither do Royal Mail.
Other areas have negotiated some forms of clawback.

Some offices within some areas have apparently negotiated local agreements regarding "swings and roundabouts".
I don't understand how a manager can force someone to work past their contracted finish time if they don't want to.
And I have never heard of it being used to make someone start earlier, unpaid, one day during the week.

And the problem with the current mentality of RM managers is once you have given them swings and roundabouts, they will want the slide and the climbing frame.

[fishtank]

I don't understand how a manager can force someone to work past their contracted finish time if they don't want to.

Daily contracted start/finish times and daily contracted hours are not afforded the same protection in law as weekly contracted hours.
We have a collective agreement to "work all paid hours".
Would that not override daily hours/start-finish times?

[Lincox]

Fish, I agree 10 minutes gained, 10 minutes over, give a bit, take a bit. But the problem is when you gain say 30 minutes, you are expected to give that back immediately you cut off, and it may not be convenient for you to go over that day. Then you get all the intimidation and insisting on you flexing, whereas the agreement quite clearly states that individual circumstances should be taken into account.

[Lincox]

I don't understand how a manager can force someone to work past their contracted finish time if they don't want to.

Daily contracted start/finish times and daily contracted hours are not afforded the same protection in law as weekly contracted hours.
We have a collective agreement to "work all paid hours".
Would that not override daily hours/start-finish times?

This would then lead to anyone with any sense remaining at the depot until their daily contract finish time. It would be up to Royal Mail then to provide WORK for them. This will not happen because Royal Mail would be unable to manage such a system and it is plainly obvious they need fluidity of hours to operate.

[rhino49]

We now have a barcode tattoo''d on our backsides and are scanned in and out of the office, and use the PDA's to record our positions during the day. Although it records our correct working hours, several staff have been arrested for indecent exposure and we are now being asked to do eight hours of lapsing every day due to staff shortages

[steven100]

So if you get a bulk delivery and they telling us to delivery it all we must because its a "swing and a roundabout". And what do postman get back in return......extra lapsing on Monday/Tuesday.
Is bulk delivery still 3 days????
Is the company really hiring full-time staff???
Do managers really get bonuses with the amount of hours banked???


Our union have given RM far too much and i suspect the round of talks will only lead to more full-time jobs getting abolished.

[hampshireman]

Just work your hours if the workload can't be aligned to attendance then it is managers problem not OPG.

But does that mean you can go home early?
It' may be a manager's responsibility to put the work in front of you but since 2007 job&finish has,on paper at least,ceased to exist so we have no agreement that says when you complete your delivery you can go home.
Managers will let you go home of course...but then managers also believe swings and roundabouts gives them the opportunity to claw this back on another day.
It is only the interpretation of "swings and roundabouts" that differs between us and them,the actual clause in the agreement is very vague,some areas have held a solid line over this issue and some haven't.
Some senior CWU reps believe that this clause allows a degree of variance between daily hours and some don't.The biggest stumbling block and where we have never been able to agree is actually how you measure,police and apply those hours and not the principle itself
It isn't a straightforward issue...it never was.

If the Manager lets you go home before your official time ; and you have presented yourself and asked if there is anything else you can do. And he/she says 'No , your done for the day'. Then there be no 'claimback' of time. (Although, BTW, there is no agreement on Banking hours).

If the runners and riders could only see that , then life might be easier. Work the effing hours you are paid for ... or at worst at least give the Management the option to send you home.

[fishtank]

If the Manager lets you go home before your official time ; and you have presented yourself and asked if there is anything else you can do. And he/she says 'No , your done for the day'.

I've never met anyone who has came back from delivery and asked a manager if there is anything else they can do.
It's in,drop the gear and disappear in most offices i would imagine.
I have met some who have "presented" themselves to management though.

There are only two ways of complying with the agreement to "work all paid hours" either you do it on a fixed daily basis or you do it on a flexible weekly basis.
Since some members seem reluctant to do it on a daily basis it's hardly surprising that Royal Mail are pushing for the alternative....and they will keep pushing and if i'm honest with you if Royal Mail could come up with a fair way to manage,measure and apply it...i would agree with them.
The chances of that happening with this shower of managers is slim to none though so it's a purely hypothetical argument.
Those who do the job properly have little to fear from this system,those who continue to carve the job up to make time would obviously be terrified but who cares about them...

[eastie]

on most mondays and tuesdays the DOM has long gone by the time I get back so he wouldnt know what time I finished anyway

[arnold cheshire]

on most mondays and tuesdays the DOM has long gone by the time I get back so he wouldnt know what time I finished anyway

weve started to grass on managers going home early tell the sector manager

[TheCobra]

"Swings and roundabouts" Bahahahaha, Weclome to the Royal Mail, where the lunatics are definitely running the asylum.