D2D profit

[dvbuk55]

It's still a myth that the delivery supplement was universal when in fact part timers only get a pro rata payment despite delivering the same amount - perhaps the myth is in the fact that it is described as a delivery supplement rather than something else - because people who don't deliver anything still get it. It was a poor distribution of cash and an ill thought out scheme - and I would wager it was RM who came up with it - because if it was the unions idea then it was a disservice to all part time delivery staff.

[Martin Walsh]

Dvbuk, Royal Mail did not want to pay anything at all as they argued that there was sufficient time within all offices to delivery door to door with the other addressed items and that they were already paying wages for delivering mail.

The CWU argued for the money to be made permanent and paid 52 weeks per year. Once in was part of your basic pay and the only difference is one is pensionable and the other is not then it had to be pro rata to part timers. if it was not then part timers would end up being paid an higher hourly rate than full timers. Clearly the majority of delivery staff who are full time would not be happy if they are being paid a less hourly rate than part timers.

[dvbuk55]

Dvbuk, Royal Mail did not want to pay anything at all as they argued that there was sufficient time within all offices to delivery door to door with the other addressed items and that they were already paying wages for delivering mail.

The CWU argued for the money to be made permanent and paid 52 weeks per year. Once in was part of your basic pay and the only difference is one is pensionable and the other is not then it had to be pro rata to part timers. if it was not then part timers would end up being paid an higher hourly rate than full timers. Clearly the majority of delivery staff who are full time would not be happy if they are being paid a less hourly rate than part timers.

The fact that the money was acquired was a good thing but the money could have been dispersed on a fairer basis. Naming it a delivery supplement was stupid. How much better would it have been to have the money across the whole spectrum equally. The supplement as it is can only be described as a slap in the face to part time members who deliver equal amounts for a pro rata payment AND full timers who deliver nothing at all in many instances receive full payment, is this the "winners and losers" mentality that is currently prevalent in the CWU. "RM didn't want to pay anything" just about sums up the recent tac on the state of the union - real trade unionists would turn in their grave at the turn of events in recent negotiations. Honesty would be a starting point for the renewal of the re-organisation of the CWU.

[wookie]

The main thing that irks me about this 'delivery supplement' is that in the office I work the indoor staff love it as they don't deliver any and most of the firm drivers have at the most deliver around a hundred. Then a pair of poor sods who have a p&l of over a 1100 drops, get hammered with 2-6 door2doors and get paid the same. And yes, I'm in the latter! I pray for a rethink on this payment method!
And finally, I know we all work the same hours but the pressure from managers concerning door2doors is just getting embarrassing now, no one I know has been sacked but it really is a matter of time.

[Martin Walsh]

Dvbuk , the only way it could be done was a delivery supplement which would be paid only to those who work in a delivery office , in the same way there is a mail centre supplement which is less money and only paid to people who are tagged to a mail centre . There is also a collections supplement paid to collection staff only .


So there are 3 different permanent additions to basic pay which is one reason why the union did not argue to have it all in pensionable pay as there would be 3 different national pay rates for delivery , processing and collections employees which is something the union has always opposed as strongly as regional pay.

Equally you say that the money should have be shared out more equally. However the fact is the delivery supplement was made up of early morning shift allowance and the door to door payment for the 2008 Callander year. Not many part timers recieved the early shift allowance but got a share of it. Eqaully there are part timers on different contracts ranging from 6 hours up too 35 hours so would you give all part timers the same money whether they are a Saturday only part timer or work 5 days per week.

Eqaully when you talk about fairness , was it fair that a lot of rest day covers never had the opportunity to earn any extra on door to door money as the duty holder did it. Was it fair that the firms driver who did some of the walk holders heavy drops recieved nothing or the night sorter who helped IPS the mail etc. Equally a lot of firms drivers and indoor staff recieved the early allowance.

in addition anyone who joined after 2007 would not have been in receipt of the early morning allowance and there were equally hundreds of offices who never started early enough to warrant the shift allowance.

Plus if we are talking fairness then what about those offices in parts of the country who never got more than. 1 door to door item was it fair others in more affluent areas recieved more money as they got 3 door to door every week.

Eqaully going forward there will be less firm drivers , less nights other than those who work on CSS machines so it was then decided that it would be better to be paid as a permanent addition to basic pay which would then be paid 52 weeks per year and would go up in line with pay rises.

Once this was decided then part timers had to be paid pro rata to hours worked. if you did not then part timers would be paid an higher hourly rate than a full timer.

Now Dvbuk the above was what a union has to consider prior to making a decision and then putting that decision to a vote of the members. Now Dvbuk why don't you put your alternative option out there so we can see if it is a realistic proposal or it is flawed ?

As the union does not have the luxury of many on this site that what you voice on here you never have to negotiate it with the employer .

[fishtank]

I think it may be time to look at all of the supplements and bonuses still being paid out despite the majority of the schemes having closed or the criteria no longer being met.
Controversial...it certainly would be but the majority of the arguments used to remove ESA 1+2 could be used against a great deal of other schemes.

[fishtank]

Now Dvbuk the above was what a union has to consider prior to making a decision and then putting that decision to a vote of the members. Now Dvbuk why don't you put your alternative option out there so we can see if it is a realistic proposal or it is flawed ?.

Every system has flaws but it should be as fair as possible.
If the delivery supplement is truly that and paid as a reward for the physical nature of delivery work it should be paid on the basis of delivery hours worked only.
That way a part-timer on a 4hr30 delivery as part of his 6hr day is rewarded for that physical struggle and someone who doesn't deliver...isn't.
That would be the basis for a fairer system,it would still have flaws but then...it would have to go some to have as many as the present system.

[dvbuk55]

As you say dingo there are many pots of gold BUT there is only one evaluation - the end figure. Whatever the ins and outs of the various allowances then the most fair way to do it was to take the whole and divide it equally across the board into basic pay - still paid 52 week of the year to everyone EQUALLY, because we all work for RM regardless of the role we fulfil. What was wrong with that? The early shift allowance was removed from part timers pay and replaced with a pro rata payment as a delivery supplement even if they didn't deliver - and there's the rub.

I believe the negotiators over complicate things instead of looking at the bottom line - and as for negotiating with RM as some sort of terrifying experience then if it's too hot get out of the kitchen. I sometimes wonder if those who are supposed to be looking after the members interest lose sight of that fact - I mean are they intellectually able enough to digest complicated issues and render them down to the basic required result. Perhaps it is time to employ outside negotiators who, if they fail to perform, can be dismissed.

[POSTMAN]

So there are 3 different permanent additions to basic pay which is one reason why the union did not argue to have it all in pensionable pay as there would be 3 different national pay rates for delivery , processing and collections employees which is something the union has always opposed as strongly as regional pay.

But the idea as we've been told is to eventually get it into basic pay,if there are 3 different values how would that work?

[Martin Walsh]

Fish just how would your suggestion work ? As all offices have different delivery spams according to the attendance patterns and methods they have. Eqaully part timers who work only on a Saturday on a delivery only basis would they get the same as a part timer who worked 4 hours on a delivery monday to Friday and Would a part timer who worked a 5 hour delivery duty be paid more. Such an idea would be impossible to monitor.

Dvbuk originally Wanted to share door to door with all those worked in processing and collections etc and of course the money would reduce significantly if you shared the money with more people. Plus the early shift allowance still exists in mail centres.

Postman there is a commitment to review both collections and mail centres additionally pay in an attempt to bring tt in line with the delivery. However I think the unions aim will intially be to consolidate into pensionable pay say £ 7 of all supplements so to ensure that on basic pensionable pay everyone remains the same.

Fish when you say you would like a review of allowances and ex bonuses you are likely to open an hornets nest ! This would include ex pug reserve rights payments , ex drivers allowances , PBS , ICS , RRP time bonus and about another 60 other allowances. Whilst som of this money is significant to an indivdual it would add up to peanuts if you shared this between the other 130,000 workers. Plus it would make the way forward and door to door arguments look like a tea party.

[fishtank]

As all offices have different delivery spams according to the attendance patterns and methods they have.

Yes they are and since it is supposed to be a delivery supplement and delivery is the most physically demanding role in Royal Mail surely it makes sense that a longer delivery span should bring greater reward.
It could be based on a revision-agreed contracted delivery span averaged over the same 4 weeks that contracted hours are for attendance patterns.
Extra pressure overtime on delivery could be paid at a premium over other more sedentary overtime options to reflect the extra work/effort involved.
As for it being difficult to monitor...the PSP system was made for something like this.

Fish when you say you would like a review of allowances and ex bonuses you are likely to open an hornets nest !

Yes it would but it's very difficult to argue about what is and isn't fair when some members are still picking up a "productivity" bonus from a defunct scheme based on levels of productivity that other offices would laugh at now...and receive nothing.
It's also very hard to argue about fairness when trying to explain why someone who drove for RM 12 years ago still gets paid £6 more than someone who drives for them now.
It's also difficult to rationalise why someone lost their grandfather rights for ESA but someone else didn't for DSA.
If the only argument against pay simplification is it would piss off a minority and the benefits to the majority might be small then we will probably end up with 130,000 different bonuses.

[dvbuk55]

Dvbuk originally Wanted to share door to door with all those worked in processing and collections etc and of course the money would reduce significantly if you shared the money with more people. Plus the early shift allowance still exists in mail centres.

But it wouldn't exist if it had been lumped in the same pot dingo. It IS a question of looking at the bigger picture and moving away from allowances and integrating them into one pay structure, not necessarily fully pensioned initially but considering the pension has now been passed to HMG a move should be made to have all pay pensioned.

[Martin Walsh]

Dvbuk I do disagree with your assumption , you see in delivery offices Royal Mail was moving start times later intially as a result to network 07 and then as a result of walk sequencing therefore it was important that the union trapped the early start allowance when it did and it was then shared with both full timers and part timers in all delivery offices including tHose who have joined since 2010.

In mail centres the early start times support the work plan and there is no requirement for this allowance to go. Moreover I do believe if we still had thousands of employees in delivery offices all starting at 5 then we would argue for the reintroduction of a new early shift allowance.

I personally believe that if your in a mail centre , RDCS , VOC or Coolection Hub and you duty finishes at 20:00 , 21:00 or 22:00 then your should recieve an allowance for working in the same way as those who work nights do.

Fish I will respond to your post at a later time but now going out to watch a certain football match.

[dvbuk55]

Dvbuk I do disagree with your assumption , you see in delivery offices Royal Mail was moving start times later intially as a result to network 07 and then as a result of walk sequencing therefore it was important that the union trapped the early start allowance when it did and it was then shared with both full timers and part timers in all delivery offices including tHose who have joined since 2010.

In mail centres the early start times support the work plan and there is no requirement for this allowance to go. Moreover I do believe if we still had thousands of employees in delivery offices all starting at 5 then we would argue for the reintroduction of a new early shift allowance.

I personally believe that if your in a mail centre , RDCS , VOC or Coolection Hub and you duty finishes at 20:00 , 21:00 or 22:00 then your should recieve an allowance for working in the same way as those who work nights do.

Fish I will respond to your post at a later time but now going out to watch a certain football match.

Forget Delivery and Mail Centre division. I would agree that a night shift allowance should remain for both. All others should be inclusive and lets forget this winners and losers attitude some keep their allowance and others lose theirs.

[somerset]

[quote="dingo"]. There is also a collections supplement paid to collection staff only .


Thats a new one on me ? I am a collections driver and i don't get any extra !.