LTB 364/12 - National Negotiations/Postal Policy Forum

[Martin Walsh]

Dvbuk you make some assumptions and generalisations which you cannot back up. How do you know members disagree you can speak for yourself and maybe the view within your office but you cannot state that is the genealogy view of the membership.

I know Branch's who will send copies of these agreements to all members asking for views and some will hold meetings with members and with the reps of their offices within their Branch.

Sadly from my experience a lot of members will not even choose to not even read it let alone want to influence the policy. Some will make their views know and hopefully if it's a majority view then the Branch will put in an amendment to change the agreement to reflect this view.

I realise some will leave to far away from the place a meeting will take place but surely if it's strong view held by a number of reps you could share the costs of the petrol to get to the meeting and ensure your offices view is taken into account.

[gb93]

When will the members know what has been offered/negotiated.
And likely time period of vote on acceptance or not.

[Martin Walsh]

So i go back to my original message, about colleague share. The RM do not want to pay it, and they never have. So what is the plan if the talks about cs are not resolved?

it's no secret that Royal Mail will not pay the original colleague share money as in their view and that of Price Waterman the colleague share scheme terms meant that no one would qualify for the money.

Now what Royal Mail want to introduce prior to any privatisation when staff will get an employee share option, Royal Mail want to introduce a profit share scheme which unlike the colleague share scheme which was based on a 5 year cash flow projection the profit share would be based on the half year results and the full year results. The difference is how much would this be worth and the union want some of the money to be permanent whereas Royal Mail are saying that Off Comm would cry foul as they are under pressure due to the stamp price rises etc.

[Martin Walsh]

When will the members know what has been offered/negotiated.
And likely time period of vote on acceptance or not.

GB hope you are well ! The rules on policy forums are that there have to be four clear weeks where Branch's have copies of the agreements in their hands in order for them to carry out their consultation with the members.

I understand that the policy forum has been penciled in for the end of June.

[gb93]

Thanks for that Dingo, and I hope you are well too.
Credit for the info you do supply, even if I don't always agree with your slant on things.
You care enough to share. Love in over

[dvbuk55]

So i go back to my original message, about colleague share. The RM do not want to pay it, and they never have. So what is the plan if the talks about cs are not resolved?

Have a guess - somehow I have a feeling it will be resolved in RMs favour linked to even more productivity and illogical working practices. Why do I think that - well there's agreement "in principle" to WCM even though we have absolutely no idea what it is other than some vague "best working practices and how to walk upstairs correctly" - now can anyone say that these agreement talks have the members interests at heart? It looks to me like it is designed to keep chattering forever and throwing in an odd resolution to give the impression of achieving something.

[fishtank]

CWU RESPONSE TO ROYAL MAIL BUSINESS PLAN, COLLEAGUESHARE ANNOUNCEMENT AND PRIVATISATION – EMERGENCY MOTION
Given the aforementioned developments the CWU will continue to oppose privatisation beyond the end of the parliamentary process and must now seek urgent negotiations and agreements with Royal Mail and where appropriate the Government covering the following:

• Agreements to secure the Unions policy as set out in PEC Doc 52/11 (response to Royal Mail’s Business Plan and Colleagueshare announcements) published to branches at the National Briefing.

• Agreements to extend and strengthen job security commitments with the absolute need to avoid compulsory redundancies in light of the new Business Plan and Governments privatisation agenda.

• An agreed joint action plan to get all Business Transformation revisions back on track. Central to this and in line with the agreement is the need to finally ensure a fair and manageable workload for all employees. This means an end to the unacceptable managerial pressures being placed on our members on a daily basis. Instead offices must be run on the basis of agreed local and nationally co-ordinated resourcing and manpower planning.

• Confirmation that our shared vision of modernisation is still at the core of all company and Government plans.

• Confirmation that Royal Mail will remain the sole provider of the USO within the UK and that Royal Mail will continue to operate as an end to end service provider with no further break up or sale of the individual Businesses or functions within the group.

• Agreement that there will be no casualisation of the workforce and that the delivery model set out in the National Agreement will continue to be supported throughout the duration of the new Business Plan.

• Agreement that in addition to the Government taking on the historical pension deficit, CWU members pension entitlements will be fully protected including the use of RPI as the measure of uprating pensions.

• In order to create a culture of mutual interest we need to reach agreement on a new form of governance including consideration of the principles of industrial democracy. This means ending the continuing command and control managerial culture that has been a constant obstacle to progress.

In order to pursue this policy the Union will take whatever steps are necessary up to and including National Industrial Action for all CWU members within the Postal Group.

Prior to any Industrial Action ballot the Union will immediately embark on a major consultation and communications exercise with all CWU members.

465/11 Ref: 24209 Date: 13 May 2011

[dvbuk55]

in order for them to carry out their consultation with the members.

What form of consultation do you think this will take because the next time the members in my office will be consulted will be the first. The next time the members in my office meet a Branch member will be the first. A member of the PEC - I'll be seeing God first. That's the whole problem with the union set up - it is driven from the top down instead of the opposite way round. I am from a very large Branch and it is a shambles. In order for the union to be taken seriously by the members the union need to get down and dirty with the members. Exactly how many paying members do you think are actively involved in union matters of any description as a proportion?

[Martin Walsh]

Dvbuk besides posting on here how else do you try and influence policy ? Do you write to your Branch ? Do you contact your area rep ? Did you think of becoming a local rep to ensure your voice and your offices get heard by your Branch committee ?

Can I make a suggestion to you why don't you write to Dave Ward and ask him to visit your office , he does this regularly as does some of the other offices.

Belive me very few people from CWU HQs , Divisional reps , PEC , regional secretaries , area reps or Branch secretaries come on here ! If you want communications with then then contact them so they can speak to you face to face and get to know who you are and what your office is like instead of being anonymous on here.

[dvbuk55]

Dvbuk besides posting on here how else do you try and influence policy ? Do you write to your Branch ? Do you contact your area rep ? Did you think of becoming a local rep to ensure your voice and your offices get heard by your Branch committee ?

Can I make a suggestion to you why don't you write to Dave Ward and ask him to visit your office , he does this regularly as does some of the other offices.

Belive me very few people from CWU HQs , Divisional reps , PEC , regional secretaries , area reps or Branch secretaries come on here ! If you want communications with then then contact them so they can speak to you face to face and get to know who you are and what your office is like instead of being anonymous on here.

You see dingo, you put the onus on the member, who I might add is a paying member, whereas I believe the union should come to the member. Do you think that there aren't any problems at unit level taken to Branch and that they are ignored - time and time again, that the weaselling when under negotiation to get units to agree to changes that they know are wrong then you are living in a good place. Not only should the union be responsible to the members for the efficient working of the branch they should actively investigate that the members are satisfied with the representation. As for DW visiting my unit would be like the RM Manager who came to investigate the dissatisfaction on a survey, full of agreement and platitudes and the end result..............nada. The likes of DW have their own agenda to follow and are little interested in the grass roots, more a politician at that level than an activist I'm afraid.

[Martin Walsh]

Dvbuk you call Dave a politician and it's clear you know nothing about him at all. He does not want to be a politician and he started off as messenger , became local rep in Tooting and worked his way up cause he believes in assisting the membership and fighting injustices. You might not agree with issues of on the agreements or even his aims but no one should accuse someone of something if you don't know him.

Now in terms of you second point well I do believe When you join a trade union ans you don't agree wih something you ensure your voice is heard and you don't do that simply by saying I am a paying member you complain and Attempt to change things.

[fishtank]

Now in terms of you second point well I do believe When you join a trade union ans you don't agree wih something you ensure your voice is heard and you don't do that simply by saying I am a paying member you complain and Attempt to change things.

Maybe your experience of the union is different to the rest of ours dingo but i would stake everything i had on the fact that the majority of members will not even have seen these agreements before the Policy Forum.
Now...who do we blame for that?
Members with full-time jobs or Branch Officials with full-time release?
Sure it's easy to lump all the blame onto the members but how exactly does an ordinary member ensure his voice is heard over an agreement he may not know exists that will be debated at a policy forum he may not know exists.
And how does an ordinary member put forward amendments to a WCM agreement anyway.
I think if you were to ask those members who had not signed up to this particular gravy train the vast majority view would be that WCM is not welcome at all and the union's position should be one of complete non-cooperation.
Most in the union know this but it clearly doesn't suit the agenda of mutual love-in at HQ so it doesn't really matter what the members think does it?

[heathrow86]

Thankyou Dingo for your information. However as you may know from previous posts, i work as a network driver. The Network 12 review has gone to disagreement over the RM plans, so what happens to the £400 lump sum? Also how can we trust what the management are saying when it's obvious that they have alternative agendas, such as outsourcing runs and not including 2 vocs that may be closed. Also nearly every driver you talk to who has seen the increase in the 98 york trailers, (and at the NDC these past few days a demo of the proposed longer trailer). Know that the management is on a fast track to selling off the newtork. Which to my mind is why the vehicles are getting bigger so as to reduce the fleet, which in turn would make the takeover by another company easier, as at the moment there is not one haulier who could completey take over our fleet due to its size.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Now in terms of you second point well I do believe When you join a trade union ans you don't agree wih something you ensure your voice is heard and you don't do that simply by saying I am a paying member you complain and Attempt to change things.

That makes me nervous, it seems to indicate that the louder you are the better you are represented, or the more effect you have on policy. It would hardly engage ordinary members on the ground, especially those Fishtank mentions, and especially those who need protecting the most.

People need engaging by the Union not the other way round, I don't know about any other function but I do know that Delivery Members are too knackered at the end of a working day to then start campaigning for change, or indeed travel to another city for a branch meeting. Also unless their commitment is strong not many are willing to give up their only family day in the week to try and get their views and opinions heard.

It also, if I may be so bold, would tend to favour those already in office no matter how strong their Union values, or their commitment to members, they automatically have an inbuilt advantage as their work is the Union, not an extra to an already long working day. I fully support full time release reps, and I recognise the hard work they put in to keep members informed, protected and educated. However, the current system whilst recognising strong areas and good reps, does not appear to address poor inactive branches and reps and until they address that some members will feel disenfranchised and that weakens everyone in the Union.

[Martin Walsh]

TBT the principle of a trade union should be the strong protect the weak and that has happened time and time over the years. however sometimes people think all they need to do in a trade union is pay their money and let everyone else do the week and they can moan and groan about it.

Well in my book if a member ignores the advice of the union starting early , working their breaks , cutting corners , racing around to gain time and drving their cars then they have helped management believe that there are more savings in delivery then their actual are.

Equally some on here are passionate about things but why don't they do something which will actually change things or at least try.

I am not blaming the members cause there are a lot of reps around who talk a good fight but offer nothing in reality and too easily surrender to management.

However the CWU is a voluntary organisation , reps are volunteers and if you feel you can do better then put yourself forward make the difference or if you want to remain a member then get yourself to branch meetings and make your view known.