UNION 'FORCES OUT' POSTMAN

[Stormproof]

oh my what a statement 'dave' firstly you have forgoten the 'old' guys have usually been in royal fail for a fair period of time and as you are aware age does not come alone. This means you cannot walk (or should i say run) as quick as you used to and as you have been on the job for longer than the newbies have been out of nappies. My guess is youd want out before you have a heart attack with the 'modernisation process now enveloping royal fail' but of course you are right the jobs were a tad easier in years gone by untill stupid people like yourself came into royal fail who are only to keen to run there ass off for them sad refelection of the times but dont forget you will too grow older what then chum !!

[Militantdave]

i see the bulling starts again.

i must be a stupid young runner because i have a differant opinion to you two

suprised you did not accuse me of being a manager too

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Members are reminded of the rules not to use language that could be construed as bullying or harrasment

[Stormproof]

Who's bullying? Axeman made a statement and I agreed. I don't see anything wrong with that. This is a forum where people can vent their feelings if they wish and you sure have made use of that in the few posts that you have made. Perhaps you should take a look at how your posts come across to others because that could be perceived as bullying.

Definition of Bullying

Bullying may be characterised as offensive, intimidating, malicious or insulting behaviour, an abuse or misuse of power through means intended to undermine, humiliate, denigrate or injure the recipient. Bullying or harassment may be by an individual against an individual (perhaps by someone in a position of authority such as a manager or supervisor) or involve groups of people. It may be obvious or it may be insidious. Whatever form it takes, it is unwarranted and unwelcome to the individual.
(ACAS 2010)

Examples of overt bullying

Verbal abuse, such as shouting or swearing at staff or colleagues either in public or private
Personal insults
Constantly humiliating or ridiculing others, belittling them in front of others, persistent criticism or sarcasm
Terror tactics, open aggression, threats, abuse, and obscenities towards targets, shouting and uncontrolled anger triggered by trivial situations
Persecution through threats and fear, physical attack
Making threats or inappropriate comments about career prospects, job security or performance appraisal reports

Examples of covert bullying

Subjecting targets to excessive supervision, monitoring everything they do and being excessively critical about minor things with malicious intent.
Taking the credit for the other person’s work, but never the blame when things go wrong
Personal insults and name-calling, spreading malicious rumours
Freezing out, ignoring, excluding and deliberately talking to a third party to isolate another
Never listening to other’s point of view, always cutting across people in conversation
Overruling an individual’s authority without prior warning or proper discussion
Removing whole areas of work responsibility from a person, reducing their job to routine tasks which are well below their skills and capabilities
Setting impossible targets and objectives, or changing targets without telling the person
Deliberately withholding information which the person requires in order to do their job effectively

[andy2007]

With seniority, everyone is saying that it is wrong because it could be indirect age discrimination but how about the exploitation angle?

I can only comment about my unit and I hope other units are not as bad but I would imagine most indoor units are run in the same way.

RMG reward long service because they benefit from it. If staff stay, it cuts down the costs of recruiting and training. Staff are rewarded with extra days annual leave after milestones are reached. Are these rewards enough to retain staff or do the other advantages that seniors get increase the retention rate?

Maybe seniors get more privileges where I am because the cost of recruiting is much higher than in other parts of RMG.

If RMG benefit from the increased loyalty that seniority brings, RMG should provide the reward (as they do with the extra days annual leave). The problem with allowing staff to pick annual leave in seniority order is that RMG is not providing the reward. It is the juniors that are being forced to give up their fair share of prime weeks to incentivise the seniors. One section of the workforce is exploiting the other.

We need a national agreement on this. Maybe a random picking order could be used to pick the first two weeks with the reverse order used to pick the rest of the weeks after everyone has had their first two weeks confirmed.

The aim of allocating extra days leave after 10 and 15 years is to encourage loyalty. This is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. The aim of a system for allowing people to choose their annual leave is to allow everyone to pick their leave in a way that they can all agree is fair. As the main purpose of an annual leave selection system is not to reward loyalty and as there are other options available, allowing one section of staff to get the most popular weeks off at the expense of the others would not be a proportionate way of achieving a legitimate aim.

With the exception of the Christmas period, when there's very limited leave allowed, it's the same here. But anyone who manages to get any leave then, has to wait until everyone else has had a chance, before they can book it again. But with enough patience (I'm in the bottom 3rd of the seniority list, with 15 years!) We'll all become senior eventually. The senior Posties had to do the same. When they were younger.

[MinisterofCucumber]

Example of overt bullying
Making threats or inappropriate comments about career prospects, job security or performance appraisal reports

When staff complained that there were no promotion prospects in my unit, the standard reply from line managers was, "If you don't like it, leave!"

Example of covert bullying
Removing whole areas of work responsibility from a person, reducing their job to routine tasks which are well below their skills and capabilities

Isn't this what picking duties according to seniority is all about?

It is the same with annual leave. Just because a majority of workers vote for seniority it does not legitimise the mob forcing juniors to give up their share of popular weeks. The Union cannot introduce a system unless management agree. If management agree to let one group of staff exploit another, they are responsible for this type of bullying. A junior who does not get his/her fair share of school holiday weeks would be justified in complaining that management have failed in their duty of care by implementing a system that bullies juniors.

Seniority is the CWU way. When I tried to get my Branch to put my nomination forward for Area Rep two years ago, they refused on the grounds that it was not my turn and I was jumping the queue. No doubt the same thing will happen this time.

Seniority is the cornerstone of British life. Most of our families and clubs allocate rank according to seniority. It is the reason why a lot of British families don't take education very seriously.

Democracy, in theory, is meant to be talent friendly. If you have just arrived but can persuade the voters that you would be better than the incumbent time-server, the voters will be allowed to decide for themselves. Elections, in theory, are one of the few types of occasions when the British are allowed 'rank-release' and get a visit to equalityland where everyone has one vote regardless of position. In practise, most clubs and societies (like the CWU) have committees that ensure nominations are filtered so only the candidates whose turn it is can stand.

Seniority is objective and Anglo-Saxon culture regards it as the fairest method of selection. However, it is an alternative to equality and is not the fairest ranking system - random and rotated ranking systems are a lot fairer because everyone gets a chance to be number 1.

Ranking systems should be avoided whenever possible if equality of opportunity is desired. The ACAS guidelines above indicate that allowing individuals to develop is desirable. Seniority systems don't allow individuals to develop when they want to.

[Stormproof]

Our job is (apparently) unskilled and tbh there is'nt much in the way of promotion prospects unless you want to go over to the darkside. PHG's are gone. There are some specialist duties which involve a suitability interview ie the locker/callers. In my office and the majority of others A/L is not done on seniority it is done on a group rotation. So most people get at least 2 of the weeks they ask for. Seniority is only used for re-signs and tbh most of the walks are the same now. If some are longer than others you cut off and just work your hours. As was stated before age is a major factor, someone aged 50/60 is not going to be fit as a 20/30 yr old. Doing this job for 20+ takes a toll on your body even if the duties were easier all those years ago. Its still a physical job.

[Tman]

Elections, in theory, are one of the few types of occasions when the British are allowed 'rank-release' and get a visit to equalityland where everyone has one vote regardless of position. In practise, most clubs and societies (like the CWU) have committees that ensure nominations are filtered so only the candidates whose turn it is can stand.
Seniority is objective and Anglo-Saxon culture regards it as the fairest method of selection. However, it is an alternative to equality and is not the fairest ranking system - random and rotated ranking systems are a lot fairer because everyone gets a chance to be number 1.

If you really wanted "fairness" you'd have selection on merit, as the rest of British industry etc does, but it's a little hard to select or differentiate posties on grounds of ability when the duties/skills required are essentially all the same.
Even if it was the "British way" as you like to reiterate, it certainly beats the Asian way, where the job is given to the interviewer's cousin's brother's sister's boyfriend, or the bloke offering the biggest back-hander......

[DGP1]

Elections, in theory, are one of the few types of occasions when the British are allowed 'rank-release' and get a visit to equalityland where everyone has one vote regardless of position. In practise, most clubs and societies (like the CWU) have committees that ensure nominations are filtered so only the candidates whose turn it is can stand.
Seniority is objective and Anglo-Saxon culture regards it as the fairest method of selection. However, it is an alternative to equality and is not the fairest ranking system - random and rotated ranking systems are a lot fairer because everyone gets a chance to be number 1.

If you really wanted "fairness" you'd have selection on merit, as the rest of British industry etc does, but it's a little hard to select or differentiate posties on grounds of ability when the duties/skills required are essentially all the same.
Even if it was the "British way" as you like to reiterate, it certainly beats the Asian way, where the job is given to the interviewer's cousin's brother's sister's boyfriend, or the bloke offering the biggest back-hander......

Christ, you've actually said something else I agree with.

I'm going to have to go and lie down in a dark room

[clashcityrocker]

I don't think nepotism and corruption are unique to "Asian" culture.

[Tman]

Good to see you're still banging that worn out old drum, Disgruntled...

[fishtank]

I think,and this is my personal opinion that some members are using terms like "bullying" and trying to convince the board in general that members are making things personal in a completely inappropriate way.
It has happened on a few threads lately and again it's only my opinion but i believe it's a blatant and very childish attempt to silence the opinions of other members.
If you make controversial posts you have to expect some kind of reply in kind.
If that's not what you are looking for you are using the wrong medium...it's a blog you should be writing...and remember to disable the comments...like Moya.

[DGP1]

Good to see you're still banging that worn out old drum, Disgruntled...

Thankyou

[Militantdave]

I think,and this is my personal opinion that some members are using terms like "bullying" and trying to convince the board in general that members are making things personal in a completely inappropriate way.
It has happened on a few threads lately and again it's only my opinion but i believe it's a blatant and very childish attempt to silence the opinions of other members.
If you make controversial posts you have to expect some kind of reply in kind.
If that's not what you are looking for you are using the wrong medium...it's a blog you should be writing...and remember to disable the comments...like Moya.

untill stupid people like yourself came into royal fail

i call this bullying and utterly pathetic name calling because no doubt you would be one of the old guard and /or a blinkered union man.
if you two think this is a physically demanding job,consider yourselves very lucky not to reside in the real world ,with buliders ,rig workers labourers ,nurses ETC ETC ETC ETC.i have no doubt one side of your brains has thought it and convinced the other side that its true..but it aint..this job is sort , then walk carring a bag or pushing a trolley ,or in my case a whole bundle at a time.

i walk to the bathroom to take a dump ,i dont think ive done anything to demanding then.Climbing everest would be physicly demanding,walking from one house to the next aint

[andy2007]

If you really doubt that this is a physically demanding job, then I think you need to talk to some people who've been doing it longer, and ask about their health. Or better yet, look through some of the threads about health problems on RMC.

You're right that there are many other jobs, which are far more physically demanding. But it doesn't alter the fact that Muscularskelital problems are an occupational hazard for Posties. I've only been a Postie for 15 years, and already I have a bad back, and a dodgy knee. And I work indoors, which Delivery Posties consider to be an easier job. Many of my Colleagues have similar, or far worse problems. They aren't caused by lifting much weight (the weight limits avoid that particular problem), but by the repetitive nature of the job.