Build a Rank and File Movement in the CWU

[dvbuk55]

"The most obscene example i read about a month ago is Africa, the poorest continent in the world, actually contributes a net flow of hundreds of billions OUT to...you guessed it... banks, corporations and billionaires from Britain, US etc - tax evasion, corrupt rulers that our governments' support, cheap resources, the sweatshop labour, child labour, etc"

From whom the money was borrowed - try telling someone you've borrowed money from that you don't want to pay it back - needless to say they won't be very happy.

But the big bad world of capitalism finances these countries and has written off billions in foreign debt - if you ain't got it - you can't finance it.

All my working life I have seen and heard how the third world has been hard done by when billions upon billions have been poured into these countries, decade upon decade upon decade. And the end result? War and famine. It is what is done with the money by the feckless corrupt administrations that cause these problems not those who provide the money.

How many times do you see pictures of some of these third world countries where there are more kalashnikovs than there are loaves of bread?

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Most of the countries that now owe debts to western countries were supported by UK and USA during the cold war against USSR and the perceived encroachment of communism. Governments like South Africa's aperthid, Sadam Hussein, IRANs pre revolution regime, Chad (Not totally sure but I think they were) and the corrupt South Vietnamese Government of the late 60s and early 70s, also the Tanzanian Government in its war against Idi Amin's Uganda. USA also supported terrorists/freedom fighters (depends on your point of view) in Central and South America. These successful or unsuccessful actions in support of the Geo-political agenda of America and the UK governments allowed corrupt governments or powerful individuals to cream off money thereby ensuring that their country was landed with huge debts. A lot of these debts actually can never be paid off as the payments that the countries can make to the World Bank can't even cover the interest.

If we helped these countries recover and wiped out there debts perhaps the people who are coming over to escape poverty would not feel the need to do so.

However, I must state here and now that I am not against immigration far from it, we as a species emigrated from Africa to the rest of the world so why should we try to stop it know because it affects us personally. Why can't we cure the disease instead of attacking the symptoms.

[Spartacus]

Most of the countries that now owe debts to western countries were supported by UK and USA during the cold war against USSR and the perceived encroachment of communism. Governments like South Africa's aperthid, Sadam Hussein, IRANs pre revolution regime, Chad (Not totally sure but I think they were) and the corrupt South Vietnamese Government of the late 60s and early 70s, also the Tanzanian Government in its war against Idi Amin's Uganda. USA also supported terrorists/freedom fighters (depends on your point of view) in Central and South America. These successful or unsuccessful actions in support of the Geo-political agenda of America and the UK governments allowed corrupt governments or powerful individuals to cream off money thereby ensuring that their country was landed with huge debts. A lot of these debts actually can never be paid off as the payments that the countries can make to the World Bank can't even cover the interest.

If we helped these countries recover and wiped out there debts perhaps the people who are coming over to escape poverty would not feel the need to do so.

However, I must state here and now that I am not against immigration far from it, we as a species emigrated from Africa to the rest of the world so why should we try to stop it know because it affects us personally. Why can't we cure the disease instead of attacking the symptoms.

Very well put,another thing that needs to be mentioned re the African loans is that in order to be eligible to recieve loans the country needs to adopt free market policies on health transport etc which don't help the people who need the most help.

Bureaucracy has never put food on the table.

[goinpostal]

good post TBT. Britain and the US lent the money to corrupt dictators who embezzled it or bought weapons to keep down their own people from...Britain and the US. But its the people have to pay it off.

But like that website says, the tax evasion from multinationals is an even bigger bleed on the third world, and even bigger than that is the megaprofits from the exploitation of third world resource and cheap labour - the biggest transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich anywhere in the world.

But its astonishing if you think about it, that the poorest countries in the world transfer wealth to the richest not vice versa. that's why we can afford an NHS and our rulers can tolerate democracy - we're not so poor that we're in constant revolt and need to be crushed (so far).

The labours cheap because the same regimes are privatising, slashing public services, union busting - just like here - or even outlaw unions fullstop - with the support of the US, Britain, etc. Capitalism is global, we're bad off under it but the third world is hit even worse.

Anyways how about that rank and file movement?!

[dvbuk55]

Most of the countries that now owe debts to western countries were supported by UK and USA during the cold war against USSR and the perceived encroachment of communism. Governments like South Africa's aperthid, Sadam Hussein, IRANs pre revolution regime, Chad (Not totally sure but I think they were) and the corrupt South Vietnamese Government of the late 60s and early 70s, also the Tanzanian Government in its war against Idi Amin's Uganda. USA also supported terrorists/freedom fighters (depends on your point of view) in Central and South America. These successful or unsuccessful actions in support of the Geo-political agenda of America and the UK governments allowed corrupt governments or powerful individuals to cream off money thereby ensuring that their country was landed with huge debts. A lot of these debts actually can never be paid off as the payments that the countries can make to the World Bank can't even cover the interest.

If we helped these countries recover and wiped out there debts perhaps the people who are coming over to escape poverty would not feel the need to do so.

However, I must state here and now that I am not against immigration far from it, we as a species emigrated from Africa to the rest of the world so why should we try to stop it know because it affects us personally. Why can't we cure the disease instead of attacking the symptoms.

Are we talking about the beginning of time here?

Were we displacing anyone or merely moving into an empty space and forgive me for being slightly dense but was someone laying on the hunter/gathering berries and fruit together with the centrally heated cave?

Of course the West supported the countries who purported to be anti-communist in the same way the Communist supported those who said they were pro-communist - the characters/nations were not important - the ideology was. It was known as the cold war or sometimes the Cola/Vodka theory which was a bit convoluted but did hold water - theoretically anyway.

Capitalism doesn't need to apologise for the state of the world, there is a free world because of it. What would the state of the world be if communism had triumphed I wonder? Anyone?

[Spartacus]

Capitalism doesn't need to apologise for the state of the world, there is a free world because of it. What would the state of the world be if communism had triumphed I wonder? Anyone?

Why does the alternative to capitalism have to be communism?

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Capitalism doesn't need to apologise for the state of the world, there is a free world because of it. What would the state of the world be if communism had triumphed I wonder? Anyone?

Theocracy in many forms as well as Monarchies throughout the world claimed that before capitalism showed up.

England apparently was a free country before the civil war.
During the Cromwellian Republic (which was a form of Theocracy) was claimed to be a free country.
Spain under the Inquisition was claimed to be a free country ruled by a Monarchy/Theocracy.
America before their civil war was supposed to be a free country. As long as you were white and male and owned property.

So I am afraid although Capitalism can claim to have freed the world, it does rather depend on your definition of a free world.

My definition is that each and every country has the right to decide its priorities and policies without undue influence from abroad, from whatever political persuasion or free market position they claim to promote.

Also yes I was going back to the dawn of time and no it was not empty space, we displaced proto-humans who eventually died off because we were more powerful and flexible and leaned to use tools. These species included, Homo floresiensis, Homo neanderthalensis, Australopithecus and others.

[dvbuk55]

TBT Posted


"Also yes I was going back to the dawn of time and no it was not empty space, we displaced proto-humans who eventually died off because we were more powerful and flexible and leaned to use tools. These species included, Homo floresiensis, Homo neanderthalensis, Australopithecus and others."


So you see that might is right after all. Looking at this, RM is only asking us to be flexible - I'll leave the leaning on the tools to the cleaner!

[catch]

Good point catch....

Ta. It's my favourite subject

I just think the way people of a foreign nationality have been shipped in to beat our strike and strikes in the future will be a problem. That needs to be sorted.. Dont you think???

Well strike breakers are always a problem, but their nationality needn't be. There are more effective ways of dealing with strike breakers than trying to stop immigrants coming in. I'm sure Polish workers in Watford and one or two other places refused to cross picket lines. In the Czech republic, car factory workers distribute leaflets in 2-3 languages (there's a lot of immigrant workers there, including Polish) about strikes so the information is available to all. Poland saw massive strikes in 1976-82, and there's plenty going on there now, ultimately the only answer to foreign workers being brought in as strike breakers is trying to organise them as well (picketing agencies etc.) - yes this is very hard to do, but stopping immigration would be a f**k of a lot harder for no benefit at all. It's the flip-side of outsourcing (although that's not a massive issue for Royal Mail) in terms of lowering the costs of production, lining up with nationalist protectionists (who's interests are just as much opposed to ours as Labour) isn't the way to fight its impact. It's slashes in public spending and mismanagement - part of a generalised assault on living and working conditions that's been in full swing since the late '70s that's f***ing things up.

Also, from the outside, it doesn't seem to me that the agency workers are going to have much effect on the strikes - if there's rolling actions/work to rules/wildcats going on they were pretty ineffective last time and will be ineffective again in clearing the backlog. The issue really is trying to up the ante with this current dispute and extend action to the rest of public sector (the main reason I'm on here), and I'm much more worried about the delays by Hayes et al. than a few strike breakers being bussed in.

Going back to the original post, I don't think a "rank and filist movement within the CWU" is an appropriate response to a crisis in leadership - they just tend to go into endless cycles of chaning the leadership around and tinkering with structure when there's far more systemic issues to deal with.

More important are the parallel structures that can be set up completely independently - this forum being one example, where issues are discussed between people from all over, information's communicated rapidly and where there's the potential for action to be co-ordinated directly by strikers without having to appeal to the bureaucracy at all. Organisations like Workers' Power try to steer that genuine independence and critical approach into yet another dead-end, and it's nice to see them get the cold shoulder on here (as I did from a couple of posters when I first showed up).

[TrueBlueTerrier]

TBT Posted

"Also yes I was going back to the dawn of time and no it was not empty space, we displaced proto-humans who eventually died off because we were more powerful and flexible and leaned to use tools. These species included, Homo floresiensis, Homo neanderthalensis, Australopithecus and others."


So you see that might is right after all. Looking at this, RM is only asking us to be flexible - I'll leave the leaning on the tools to the cleaner!

Big words I am ok its the little ones that trip me up.

Actually my point was that might is not always right, more of can we learn by our mistakes. Anyway I have helped hijack this thread from the OP.

What about a Rank and file Movement inside the CWU.


Yes I'd support it.

[dvbuk55]

TBT Posted

"Also yes I was going back to the dawn of time and no it was not empty space, we displaced proto-humans who eventually died off because we were more powerful and flexible and leaned to use tools. These species included, Homo floresiensis, Homo neanderthalensis, Australopithecus and others."


So you see that might is right after all. Looking at this, RM is only asking us to be flexible - I'll leave the leaning on the tools to the cleaner!

Big words I am ok its the little ones that trip me up.

Actually my point was that might is not always right, more of can we learn by our mistakes. Anyway I have helped hijack this thread from the OP.

What about a Rank and file Movement inside the CWU.


Yes I'd support it.

To get back on topic TBT - yes I would support it too - how would we actually get something of that ilk off the ground?

[IWW Fellow Worker]

To get back on topic TBT - yes I would support it too - how would we actually get something of that ilk off the ground?

I'll phone Central Office first thing in the morning.

[springheeled boris]

You do not represent the workers in the CWU.

You are interested in creating the B.S.S.R(The British Soviet Socialist Republic).

You are only interested in shoving P.C crap down our throats and trying to remove our National Identity in favour of your left wing extremism.

We are slaves of capitalism at the moment and you would simply make us slaves of the government.

Be careful people as they are communists trying to hijack our struggle to gain political advantage which is what put the tories in power in 1979.

Keep your politics off our forum this is for workers to genuinely improve their working conditions and not for the likes of you and your marxist friends.

who is this "wild cat"? more like limp kitten

[BELIAL]

So you see that might is right after all. Looking at this, RM is only asking us to be flexible - I'll leave the leaning on the tools to the cleaner!

ooh you look like your out in the open now you sneaky snake in the grass. Word up chaps ,they hide long and deep,or ,am i a really stupid s**t an everyone else spotted him years ago

[pcb]

Building an alternative system to what we have now will not be easy. To much sectarianism within the working class, the thread through this debate I believe has been on how and why we the workers cannot get a better deal for ourselves. Imigration is a red herring (pun not intended) Do any of you believe that you would be better off without imigration in this country. The system is geared up to play one set of workers against another set of workers. Only under capitalism can money (capital) go anywhere in this world yet human beings are restricted due to national borders. Well this only applies to us the workers, the capitalists can and go where they like and do what they like. Paid for either by us through taxes or stolen through international agreements made by the priviledged (patents and natural resources). The reasoning over imigration is and has always been a floored arguement. This country has been made through imigration. the market does not care where you come from just as long as it can exploit you. Without surplus workers the system cannot work, without workers willing to under cut each other the system cannot work, without workers being blinded by misgiuded beliefs the system cannot work. Have you noticed something, it the workers who are exploited every day and if they remain divided we will be in this position year after year. Just think about it. Capitalism works internationally, so the workers have to be internationalists to combat this exploitation.