Divisional/Area/Lead DSM meeting

[Martin Walsh]

The disagreement process is not a sham a Local Rep cannot themselves registar a disagreement , he or her has to flag up the issue to the area rep and then the heads of disagreement are reached and the second stage disagreement with you and the area rep will take place. Then the next stage is a divisional disagreement.

Now the whole aspect of flow is not just linked to new frames , the real purpose of flow is to cut hours and just because you have new frames on order does not mean you have to agree the hours they want.

For instance in E17 in London they have introduced 64 box fittings but are now only sorting on 48 selections , all the talks have involved the area reps with the local rep .
It does not matter if the planner and the DSM or Dom are under pressure , the fact is the flow system is in the 6 step process and you have to agree the outputs at step 4 and if your not happy then you do not agree the revision. If you were in London I would ask you to contact me but I would suggust you contact your divisonal rep or CWU HQs if you want further assistance but if you say your Branch is being helpful then tell them you want to go to disagreement.

The flow system is an attempt by management to introduce the savings quicker as the average intregrated methods revision is taking 26 weeks from phase zero, whereas the flow system is meant to take 10 weeks. However everyone knows that it cannot be introduced without agreement and most Collections and Delivery directors know the timescales for the revison is impossible.

[Fluke]

In our office Flow was discussed one week and fittings put in by the end of it, despite a disagreement about not being able to resource it or the fact that it should have been part of the 6 step process. RM management are not listening and neither are the CWU.

[fishtank]

the real purpose of flow is to cut hours.

The real purpose of WCM is to cut hours.
The real purpose of the revisions is to cut hours.
I can't obviously speak for your area but up here...there are no more hours to cut.
Having porters and super-sorters,backless frames and pretty pictures on the wall won't change that.
When do we draw a line in the sand AT NATIONAL LEVEL?

While local reps are disagreeing at local level,the next bright new idea for cuts is being agreed above our heads.
What's next?....the old "stick a brush up your backside and sweep the yard......."?
Could someone inform Dave,Bobby,Mark and Moya...there is no more to give.

[dvbuk55]

the real purpose of flow is to cut hours.

The real purpose of WCM is to cut hours.
The real purpose of the revisions is to cut hours.
I can't obviously speak for your area but up here...there are no more hours to cut.
Having porters and super-sorters,backless frames and pretty pictures on the wall won't change that.
When do we draw a line in the sand AT NATIONAL LEVEL?

While local reps are disagreeing at local level,the next bright new idea for cuts is being agreed above our heads.
What's next?....the old "stick a brush up your backside and sweep the yard......."?
Could someone inform Dave,Bobby,Mark and Moya...there is no more to give.

No worries there ft, they'll be chattering about it at the next meeting, meantime the frames are going in at great knots and the discussion will be irrelevant. As for not agreeing this and not agreeing that - out go the old frames and in come the new over the weekend - soooooo agreement or not you are left with the option of not sorting or sorting on the new frames. There's full involvement for you. CWU - wake up smell the coffee or it's requiescat in pace for you.

[vigilante]

The disagreement process is not a sham a Local Rep cannot themselves registar a disagreement , he or her has to flag up the issue to the area rep and then the heads of disagreement are reached and the second stage disagreement with you and the area rep will take place. Then the next stage is a divisional disagreement.

Now the whole aspect of flow is not just linked to new frames , the real purpose of flow is to cut hours and just because you have new frames on order does not mean you have to agree the hours they want.

For instance in E17 in London they have introduced 64 box fittings but are now only sorting on 48 selections , all the talks have involved the area reps with the local rep .
It does not matter if the planner and the DSM or Dom are under pressure , the fact is the flow system is in the 6 step process and you have to agree the outputs at step 4 and if your not happy then you do not agree the revision. If you were in London I would ask you to contact me but I would suggust you contact your divisonal rep or CWU HQs if you want further assistance but if you say your Branch is being helpful then tell them you want to go to disagreement.

The flow system is an attempt by management to introduce the savings quicker as the average intregrated methods revision is taking 26 weeks from phase zero, whereas the flow system is meant to take 10 weeks. However everyone knows that it cannot be introduced without agreement and most Collections and Delivery directors know the timescales for the revison is impossible.

With all due respect I understand the disagreement process well and informed the area rep but have heard nothing back, I know he has has a week off but?
I have also informed his deputy who came down and I am awaiting some action.
The frames are not on order but in place!
So obviously what you are saying is that a 26 period methods revision is being speeded up by masking it under a 10 week flow process revision?
Obviously the 'hothouse revision'. I can only reiterate that I have contacted area about my all of mydisagreements, perhaps i will hear something soon?

[POSTMAN]

Can we have an updated 6 step process doc,i'm guessing it's much different to the one we've on the site.

[Martin Walsh]

Look lets get a few things straight , yes it is easy for people to shout about the chattering classes and everything else but lets examine the flow project.

Now does anyone seriously thing we are going to have a national dispute over the fact that Royal Mail have introduced backless frames or 64 box fittings or porters and sorters or revamped some welfare facilities.

In my 26 years in the job we have had dozens of different versions of sorting frames from wing prep to 48 box fittings and I have never seen a dispute over a set of frames. Now the CWU cannot stop Royal Mail paying for new frames and installing them into the buildings they own but what we can argue and fight over is what they propose in the way of changes as a result of the new equipment.

What I have seen is plenty of dispute over the level of cuts proposed as a result of new equipment. In terms of the flow project the CWU got Royal Mail to abide by the 6 step process and therefore you do not have to see any change in hours until you have agreed phase 4 and it has been endorsed by the members in your office. Now if Royal Mail try and introduce it before or try and cut hours well go to disagreement and get the office to refuse to agree anything until someone comes down from the Division or area.

Dvbuk plenty of issues have been resolved through talk and negotiations and if you want to call it chattering and it amuses you fine what ever tickles your fancy , but the reality is no strike gets resolved unless there is an agreement and guess what that involves talks.

[dvbuk55]

Look lets get a few things straight , yes it is easy for people to shout about the chattering classes and everything else but lets examine the flow project.

Now does anyone seriously thing we are going to have a national dispute over the fact that Royal Mail have introduced backless frames or 64 box fittings or porters and sorters or revamped some welfare facilities.

In my 26 years in the job we have had dozens of different versions of sorting frames from wing prep to 48 box fittings and I have never seen a dispute over a set of frames. Now the CWU cannot stop Royal Mail paying for new frames and installing them into the buildings they own but what we can argue and fight over is what they propose in the way of changes as a result of the new equipment.

What I have seen is plenty of dispute over the level of cuts proposed as a result of new equipment. In terms of the flow project the CWU got Royal Mail to abide by the 6 step process and therefore you do not have to see any change in hours until you have agreed phase 4 and it has been endorsed by the members in your office. Now if Royal Mail try and introduce it before or try and cut hours well go to disagreement and get the office to refuse to agree anything until someone comes down from the Division or area.

Dvbuk plenty of issues have been resolved through talk and negotiations and if you want to call it chattering and it amuses you fine what ever tickles your fancy , but the reality is no strike gets resolved unless there is an agreement and guess what that involves talks.

You keep harping on about strikes dingo. What the membership want is leadership in how we are to deal with these changes on a NATIONAL basis NOT office by office, day by day. You talk about disagreements like they are the Holy Grail............we have several in and the response is............nada. You talk but you obviously don't listen. The talks go on whilst the changes go in which makes the whole chattering senseless.

HQ should send a letter to each office rep clearly stating there is to be NO acceptance of these frames and methods of working until a NATIONAL agreement has been implemented and that any negotiation would be done by HQ...............presumably applying the same rules to each and every office without fear or favour, rather than a free for all led by RM.

[vigilante]

Dingo, we appreciate your imput on these matters.

The backless frames are not an issue for me, I have done 28 years so not exactly wet behind the ears myself,and no, I have never walked the streets for different frames.
IWT/Georoute/Flow process worry me.
We are supposed to argue about IWT/Georoute/flow issues at phase 3/4, will I have a definite answer on them by then?
Georoute is a very flawed tool developed by someone who has obviously never done the job-it dosen't allow for anything because it dosen't allow a little thing called life to interfere with it's outputs!
IWT is inaccurate for manual traffic and the model week is unrealistic.
Packet traffic has risen greatly(view 'The Big Picture') but Georoute dosen't reflect this in it's outputs enough.
I'm expected to bring in massive change from January but i'm going to speak to area/division and I can see myself at the moment asking to be taken off task,disagree, and put back on
duty.
I have 145 members I have to consider.

[The Quiet Man]

Can we have an updated 6 step process doc,i'm guessing it's much different to the one we've on the site.

Doesn't look like this has appeared yet........if there's still no sign I'll attach the new process tomorrow! (it's being updated on a daily basis I might add)

[Martin Walsh]

An LTB has come out on flow and a letter from Bob Gibson is attached to Rob Jenson . All Units should go straight to disagreement on flow until told otherwise and not to support any work on flow.

[Glenno]

Here is the LTB

[Fluke]

An LTB has come out on flow and a letter from Bob Gibson is attached to Rob Jenson . All Units should go straight to disagreement on flow until told otherwise and not to support any work on flow.

Flow was bought in last week, despite a disagreement being registered. RM chose to ignore it, where does my office stand?

[woofwoof]

shame that

[dvbuk55]

An LTB has come out on flow and a letter from Bob Gibson is attached to Rob Jenson . All Units should go straight to disagreement on flow until told otherwise and not to support any work on flow.

Flow was bought in last week, despite a disagreement being registered. RM chose to ignore it, where does my office stand?

In the same place as many others unfortunately. Like usual the information comes too late save many offices.