Sacked for wilful delay. Tribunal next week - urgent advice

[POSTMAN]

For the life of me i can't see how he got sacked,RM are seriously getting blatant.
And was the union involved?

[labbloke]

Good luck Beastman, After reading your post, i think you know yourself the most pertinant point is the ACAS advice. An employment tribunal isnt there to look at your case and will not judge on the innocence or guilt of an individual or company, rather they will only judge whether or not the company has dismissed you using the agreed procedure.

That and only that should be your defence.

Best of British

[beastman]

thanks alot for your input people - I really appreciate it. Nice to know I haven't had a negative comment, well at least not directed at me.

Just to answer a few questions and make a couple of points:

SexyLegs - yes I am in the Union and the rep was very helpful, however the CWU legal people
stated they believed my case wasn't strong enough to warrant defending me at their cost.
Frankly I was a bit gobsmacked at some of the comments they made as it seemed that they were
very keen to side with RM. I get the feeling that in todays world where everything is so cost conscience,
unless its a banker case they maybe don't want to know nowdays.

taffy45 - yes the mail ended up being delivered that day - only after my lino contacted the DOM who obviously wasnt a happy bunny.

REDLETTER - personally I usually did return to the DO as I preferred to drop dibbed packets there rather than drop them at the local post office. I should add the local post office is closer to home to me so going back to the DO was always a longer journey - out of interest why did you ask?

magicoops - yes I have left out one thing that could be relevant. On the day we were really delayed and I knew I wouldn't be able to do a full round and a lapse in anywhere near on time. I spoke to the lino who took a row (a quarter off me) and I agreed that I thought I could complete in time.....obviously just guesswork on my part. So I did three quarters of a walk plus a lapse, which is effectively almost a full walk. I left the office at 11.30 and was due
to finish shift at 14.00 AND have a 20 minute break included......on an unfamiliar walk I guess I was barmy to assume I could do it but I suppose I was just grateful I had a row taken off me. I think that was part of the reason I was reluctant to call the office as they had already took a row off me.

Cheetah:

1 & 2 & 3 - yes as far as I am aware they followed the RM script.
4 Its was the DOM who made all the decisions - I presume that high enough level?
5 I like that bit (nice one) "The document you quote says either ring or return to office NOT both"
6 I wonder if that will help - no harm in trying.

I think the DOM didn't like me and that as he knew I had a dodgy ankle it was his perfect excuse to get rid of me.

[korky]

I'd emphasize on "new duty" and "no training"
this alone should stand you up in good cause,
i still side with the leave reserves and know it can be a pain in the arse, blamed for everything and treat like dog doodar, but how on earth can you predict how long a duty will take if you've never done it before?
mobiles don't come into it as they are not part of your equipment

[flaminmoses]

good luck mate.

im in a similar position.

will be finding out in the next couple of weeks where i stand about my tribunal.

i'll keep a good eye on this thread

[SexyLegs]

"SexyLegs - yes I am in the Union and the rep was very helpful, however the CWU legal people
stated they believed my case wasn't strong enough to warrant defending me at their cost.
Frankly I was a bit gobsmacked at some of the comments they made as it seemed that they were
very keen to side with RM. I get the feeling that in todays world where everything is so cost conscience,
unless its a banker case they maybe don't want to know nowdays."

I find this very disturbing, a similar case has just played out at my delivery office, and the same response from the union when to all and sundry it looked clear cut, begs the question and it's a serious one, is there any point being in this union? What have they done for us in the last 3 years?, honestly, can anyone think of anything good the CWU have done for OPGs, cos I can't!

Beggars belief!

[derkhead]

Its shocking but not suprising with the cwu. From whats been stated you should win this without any problems and i cannot see how the cwu could think otherwise. Wtf are people paying their subs for if union members cannot rely on the unions help when they need it the most.

[flaminmoses]

its 75k costs if you lose and the union have to pay thats why you have to have a solid case......apparently.

[beastman]

its 75k costs if you lose and the union have to pay thats why you have to have a solid case......apparently.

Where did you hear that figure? I know solicitors make a alot but these cases are only short. Weightmans (RM's solictors) have used their bullying tactics by stating they will claim £4200 in costs against me. I'm not too worried because I don't have the money to pay them even if the tribunal awarded costs against me wich is VERY unlikely. The citizens advice stated this:

In our experience, such intimidatory tactics are
often successful, especially when used against
unrepresented applicants – of whom there are
far too many. This is despite the fact that the
number of costs awards actually made against
applicants has historically been very small. In
the financial year 2000-01, for example, when
the employment tribunal system disposed of
some 93,000 cases, only 167 costs awards
were made against applicants.

So that less than 0.2% - or 1 in 500 people that had costs awarded against them.

The CAB document also says this:

In particular, revised employment tribunal
procedural rules, which came into force on
16 July 2001, increased from £500 to £10,000
the maximum amount of costs that a tribunal
can award, where it considers that a party
(either the applicant or the respondent) has
acted “vexatiously, abusively, disruptively or
otherwise unreasonably”.

Obviously theres potential costs on both sides to possibly be taken into account.

[Listonosz]

I was in a similar position a few months ago. Didn't want to work over so left x amount of mail in frame. Later on delivery realised I'd taken too much and I wasn't gonna complete on time so I returned to the office with some mail, (conduct code says return to office OR phone manager) After fact finding and formal charge I was handed a serious warning which is on file for two years, I appealed, appeal was heard almost two months later (RM broke their own procedure as set out in conduct code), and another two months later (once again RM broke their own appeal procedure process as set out in conduct code) my warning was reduced to 1 year. Seems to me RM can do whatever they want, conduct code is only there for their benefit and not ours.
Hope your tribunal proves a success

[beastman]

I was in a similar position a few months ago. Didn't want to work over so left x amount of mail in frame. Later on delivery realised I'd taken too much and I wasn't gonna complete on time so I returned to the office with some mail, (conduct code says return to office OR phone manager) After fact finding and formal charge I was handed a serious warning which is on file for two years, I appealed, appeal was heard almost two months later (RM broke their own procedure as set out in conduct code), and another two months later (once again RM broke their own appeal procedure process as set out in conduct code) my warning was reduced to 1 year. Seems to me RM can do whatever they want, conduct code is only there for their benefit and not ours.
Hope your tribunal proves a success

Interesting stuff. Can you please expand on what happened when you say "RM broke their own procedure as set out in conduct code" and also "RM broke their own appeal procedure process as set out in conduct code". I'm wondering if they could be relevant points to my situation.

[REDLETTER]

its 75k costs if you lose and the union have to pay thats why you have to have a solid case......apparently.

Where did you hear that figure? I know solicitors make a alot but these cases are only short. Weightmans (RM's solictors) have used their bullying tactics by stating they will claim £4200 in costs against me. I'm not too worried because I don't have the money to pay them even if the tribunal awarded costs against me wich is VERY unlikely. The citizens advice stated this:

In our experience, such intimidatory tactics are
often successful, especially when used against
unrepresented applicants – of whom there are
far too many. This is despite the fact that the
number of costs awards actually made against
applicants has historically been very small. In
the financial year 2000-01, for example, when
the employment tribunal system disposed of
some 93,000 cases, only 167 costs awards
were made against applicants.

So that less than 0.2% - or 1 in 500 people that had costs awarded against them.

The CAB document also says this:

In particular, revised employment tribunal
procedural rules, which came into force on
16 July 2001, increased from £500 to £10,000
the maximum amount of costs that a tribunal
can award, where it considers that a party
(either the applicant or the respondent) has
acted “vexatiously, abusively, disruptively or
otherwise unreasonably”.

Obviously theres potential costs on both sides to possibly be taken into account.

I been quoted £6000 by a Solicitor as max, more like £3000 in reality, Do it yourself - very little other than time and effort.

[Listonosz]

The appeal procedure as set out in conduct code reads "Every employee has the right to appeal against a discipline penalty.....A hearing will then be arranged within 2 weeks (up to a serious warning) or within 4 weeks (for major penalties) and the employee will be notified in writing of the time, place and manager dealing with the appeal at least 5 days working days beforehand"

It was almost 2 months before my appeal was heard and i got to find out when it would take place the day before.

The appeal procedure goes on to say "The employee will normally be told the outcome of the appeal face to face within 5 working days. If this is not possible the individual will be informed of the reason and the expected delay"
in my case I didn't have any contact from the appeals manager again for almost two months, never told me why the delay. seems we can be done for not following procedure but RM procedure doesn't apply to them

[Cheetah]

I was in a similar position a few months ago. Didn't want to work over so left x amount of mail in frame. Later on delivery realised I'd taken too much and I wasn't gonna complete on time so I returned to the office with some mail, (conduct code says return to office OR phone manager) After fact finding and formal charge I was handed a serious warning which is on file for two years, I appealed, appeal was heard almost two months later (RM broke their own procedure as set out in conduct code), and another two months later (once again RM broke their own appeal procedure process as set out in conduct code) my warning was reduced to 1 year. Seems to me RM can do whatever they want, conduct code is only there for their benefit and not ours.
Hope your tribunal proves a success

Interesting stuff. Can you please expand on what happened when you say "RM broke their own procedure as set out in conduct code" and also "RM broke their own appeal procedure process as set out in conduct code". I'm wondering if they could be relevant points to my situation.

I think he is refering to the time taken to conduct proceedings, as constant reference is made to progressing the case speedily etc in the conduct code at formal stage. When it comes to an appeal difinitive times for each stage are laid out in the conduct code which RM obviously ignored......

From my post I know point 6 may seem unsavoury, it did to me, in fact I refused to drag others in to my case. However it was the insistance of a union advisor at national level who stressed the importance of making comparrisons to how others were treated for the same offence in my office. It was he who assured me (in writing) that they could not be retrospectively punished and it did play a large part in getting my charge dissmised (all be it not as serious as disssmisall), it went to proove I was treated unfairly and discriminated against.

I cannot believe the position you find yourself in regards the way RM have treated you in robbing you of your lively hood. Also shame on the union in not defending you, absolutally unbelievable, what do they think they are there to do , what do we get for our subs..... They have turned their back on you my friend in your hour of most need...... Bl..dy apauling........

[General Mannerheim]

Beastman just wanted to wish you luck.
Weightmans are complete and utter fuckwads who all want gassing.