injuries since P/L

[clashcityrocker]

If you have no trolleys then your duty(s) should be a max of 3.5 hours.

Unless you have a local agreement that says different.

[drb]

Well your indoor work(the prep and IPS), should be minimised or non-existent. If your doing the work of a full timer then there is a problem. I do hope you are not coming in early?
In regards to a "local agreement" on spans,there should not be any in regards to health and safety. Even if a attendance pattern is a longer day the " delivery methods" remain

[Cut Off King]

If you have no trolleys then your duty(s) should be a max of 3.5 hours.

Unless you have a local agreement that says different.

There we go again, LOCAL AGREEMENT rears its ugly head again.

[drb]

Again,our reps are not supported or trained! It is a major issue! When it comes to revisions,the DOMS are like second hand car salesmen! They will sweet talk a "wet behind ear" rep! These DOMS have stood up and stated they can achieve savings to the directors.

[clashcityrocker]

There we go again, LOCAL AGREEMENT rears its ugly head again.

It's a dilemma most reps have faced BBR..do you protect the job or try to create more ft jobs.
We had 3 different proposals worked around delivery spans of 3.30,4.10 and 4.30.
The 4.30 would have maximised full-time but it was felt that it was too heavy a price to pay,likewise the 3.30 would have meant a FT/PT ratio of around 50/50 which we couldn't stomach so we settled on 4.10.
It isn't perfect...it's a trade off but the job has to be acievable at the end of the day or you aren't really protecting anything.

I have lifted the above quote by Fishtank from another thread.
Are you saying you think the delivery span in his office should have been decided by a National Agreement that would have failed to take into account the aspirations of the members of that DO?

[drb]

The "science" of the revision I feel is too complicated. I would whole heartily agree there. However the "1 in 4 Saturdays" MUST be achieved. The sticking point is who funds it? The fact is the local rep must be able to deal with the employer "eye to eye". Your attendance patterns should dictate this.

Now I sound complicated!!

[POSTMAN]

So if someone is on a P/T contract, say 6 or 7 hours per day, how does this affect these maximum ergonomical delivery spans?

It's normally the indoor part that is different for a part timer,the outdoor work should be the came.

[Hitcher]

Stop carrying bags and use the trolleys.

They havent enough trolleys for the whole office , they have strangely dissappeared.
Causes friction because the walker has the bigger loop and uses a trolley and is invariably slower but the driver with the smaller loop uses a bag .
You can't get two trolleys in the van at one time anyway with mail and packets

So if they removed all the trolleys from the office you'd all use bags regardless?

[Cut Off King]

There we go again, LOCAL AGREEMENT rears its ugly head again.

It's a dilemma most reps have faced BBR..do you protect the job or try to create more ft jobs.
We had 3 different proposals worked around delivery spans of 3.30,4.10 and 4.30.
The 4.30 would have maximised full-time but it was felt that it was too heavy a price to pay,likewise the 3.30 would have meant a FT/PT ratio of around 50/50 which we couldn't stomach so we settled on 4.10.
It isn't perfect...it's a trade off but the job has to be acievable at the end of the day or you aren't really protecting anything.

I have lifted the above quote by Fishtank from another thread.
Are you saying you think the delivery span in his office should have been decided by a National Agreement that would have failed to take into account the aspirations of the members of that DO?

Yes I am, that way the vast majority of members would get a reasonable deal.
Under local agreement, you get some offices with great attendances & small walks, and you get others with long walks and cr*p attendancies.
The problem being that unit reps & area reps and managers standards vary to a large degree.

If you have a great rep - You'll be one of the winners.
If you have a cr*p rep - Bad luck, your a loser.
If you have a good dom- you'll get a fair hearing
If you have a cr*p dom - they'll use the lack of clarity in the agreement to tie you up in knots that only a good rep can unravel.

And before you suggest voting them out - you have to address the apathy of the members since the 2010 deal. You also have to have someone to stand against them who is able to do the job properly and is commited to being fair !

Is it fair that emplyee's of the same company, in the same union, doing the same job, for the same pay should have vast differences in their working day - i.e. - longer spans mean more physical wear & tear on their boddies. Mental stress over unachievable workloads. But for the same pay as someone who 10 miles down the road who's rep got a better deal.

The union should be focusing on the majority of members. Only with a national agreement can this be achieved.

Should we have local agreement over sick attendance ?
Should we have local agreement over holiday entitlement ?
Should we have local agreement over pay ?

Then why should delivery spans be subject to the whims of local managers & reps ?

Equal T&C for all, or a two tier union, winners & losers. - Whats it to be ?

[eastie]

Stop carrying bags and use the trolleys.

They havent enough trolleys for the whole office , they have strangely dissappeared.
Causes friction because the walker has the bigger loop and uses a trolley and is invariably slower but the driver with the smaller loop uses a bag .
You can't get two trolleys in the van at one time anyway with mail and packets

So if they removed all the trolleys from the office you'd all use bags regardless?

I use a trolley personally but most dont .
where I can on my 7 loops I use a trolley but 3 loops has lots of steps or flats and cant use a trolley

[clashcityrocker]

Then why should delivery spans be subject to the whims of local managers & reps ?

The delivery span is not subject to the whim of a DOM or a rep. It is the decision of the unit.

To go back to Fishtank's office - they decided on a 4hr 10 delivery span because they felt 4hr 30 was too long and 3hr 30 didn't provide enough full-time opportunities.
What if nationally it was decided 4hr 30 was the way to go because it maximises f/t employment and gets us to the mythical 75/25 split?
What if nationally it was decided 3hr 30 was the way to go because it maximises employment. Not many f/t jobs but at least there are more jobs, taking more people off the dole?
What if nationally they decided on 4hr 30 and you work in a hilly part of the country where 4hr 30 would be backbreaking?
What if you work in an area with a lot of flats and 4hr 30 was out of the question? Due to security issues you won't benefit from the weight off the shoulder but you will have to do the same delivery span because that is what has been decided nationally?
Offices will have different mixes. They will have different hopes and aspirations. The idea that one size will fit all seems a little unrealistic.

[Lincox]

So Clash where does the Delivery Span Tool fit into this which is a National Agreement. For instance there are differences in span for type of equipment used. ie cycle, LWT, have different span. Are you saying that a local agreement overrides these spans which have been negotiated based on ergonomical and health and safety grounds. If a local agreement does override, what is the situation regarding health and safety. If someone is injured complying with a local agreement, but outside of the nationally agreed spans, which agreement are Royal Mail going to go by. You can bet your life it will be the one that does not cost them.If we are going to work on the basis of local agreements the CWU is dead in the water and RM will use this to oust the union out of the workplace.

[fishtank]

I don't as a rule like local agreements but i don't think there is anything wrong with local revisions being tailored to fit local circumstances.
I do think that they should work inside nationally agreed aims and guidelines,
I also think they should have been checked for compliance with the BTA and Health&Safety at divisional level before they were signed off..
It's pretty obvious a lot of them were not.

[Cut Off King]

CLASH wrote

"The delivery span is not subject to the whim of a DOM or a rep. It is the decision of the unit."

I can tell you know that where I work the REP decides what duty structure will be, we don't have a vote on it. As for delivery to hilly ground, the delivery span is the same. only no. of calls is different. some have all flat ground and have 500 calls, others have hilly areas / flats and have 600+ calls...the only way you get a easier round is by seniority / waiting on a re-sign coming around again.

And you still havn't answered about my other points...

Should we have local agreement over sick attendance ?
Should we have local agreement over holiday entitlement ?
Should we have local agreement over pay ?

Equal T&C for all, or a two tier union, winners & losers. - Whats it to be ?

Because at the moment it certainly seems like we have a 2 tier union

[clashcityrocker]

CLASH wrote

"The delivery span is not subject to the whim of a DOM or a rep. It is the decision of the unit."

I can tell you know that where I work the REP decides what duty structure will be, we don't have a vote on it. As for delivery to hilly ground, the delivery span is the same. only no. of calls is different. some have all flat ground and have 500 calls, others have hilly areas / flats and have 600+ calls...the only way you get a easier round is by seniority / waiting on a re-sign coming around again.

And you still havn't answered about my other points...

Should we have local agreement over sick attendance ?
Should we have local agreement over holiday entitlement ?
Should we have local agreement over pay ?

Equal T&C for all, or a two tier union, winners & losers. - Whats it to be ?

Because at the moment it certainly seems like we have a 2 tier union

No to local agreements over sick attendance, holiday entitlement or pay.
I do agree with this:
I don't think there is anything wrong with local revisions being tailored to fit local circumstances.
I do think that they should work inside nationally agreed aims and guidelines,
I also think they should have been checked for compliance with the BTA and Health&Safety at divisional level before they were signed off