Did you stop for 2 minutes?

[twobags]

Had this been opened as a 'Did you stop for 2 minutes?' POLL then I would have simply voted 'Yes' alongside probably 90% of those taking part.
It was though opened as a thread and I've sure 'muzzy' on starting it didn't expect just 'yes' or 'no' responses, the great majority of threads on discussion forums digressing somewhat from the title.
I'm sure that the issue isn't that I deviated slightly from the topic title but that my views are contrary to some members of this forum including 'Tman' and 'andy prentice'.
I've no idea what the "cheap shot" allegation is based on and am not aware of having criticised current service personnel.
I wish the TA and others a safe return, especially if they're trying to make a difference, and won't go into the reasons why, in a previous employment, I didn't offer to work in Iraq during the war there.
I'm somewhat confused by Tman's comments, the first person perspective being what is used to express one's own opinions. Whether or not Tman's comments were written with me in mind, which I certainly thought to be the case, is of little consequence. My use of 'pathetic' was though inappropriate.

Lounge Lizard wrote:

"I no longer buy a poppy though as they are increasingly being seen as a symbol of support for this countries recent unjustified or illfated military adventures abroad."
this is a cheap shot , there was no need to expand on the fact that you stopped and respected the 2 min silence the way you did

No, it's not.
Donating to the Royal British Legion by buying a poppy is directly related to the two minutes silence.
If I choose to no longer give to this charity, of all the 161,630 registered charities in England and Wales, then my saying so and why is of some relevance.
I have always cherished freedom of speech, as did those who fought in two World Wars, and would never suggest that anyone I disagree with need not comment, unless it was inapproprioate towards the extent of braking the rules of a forum or laws of the land.

your words were clearly provocative and for me inciteful you chose to make a political statement along with the fact you only chose to remember people you knew from only the two world wars ,i could go on and pick through what you say and your reasoning you clearly like the last word so theres no point talking to some one like you ,anyway just to add i stopped for the two minutes to pay my respects to all who have made the ultimate sacrifice including the thousands the british legion are helping right now mainly amputees and pts sufferers

[Carp]

Mr lounge wizard you've mentioned that you know or have millitery experience than most on the forum.My dreaded thought is that you may have been in the forces yourselfs.If you have been, then you are far much worse than i first thought.
Take that back that already advised you to speak to ex war veterns,family and friends regarding this matter.As simply your attitude stinks.No place for your type here.If only you at least know someone that has been,killed injured suffers from PTSD etc as i certainly do.

[fishtank]

No place for your type here.

Where did i hear that phrase before?

[DB1100]

Mr lounge wizard you've mentioned that you know or have millitery experience than most on the forum.My dreaded thought is that you may have been in the forces yourselfs.If you have been, then you are far much worse than i first thought.
Take that back that already advised you to speak to ex war veterns,family and friends regarding this matter.As simply your attitude stinks.No place for your type here.If only you at least know someone that has been,killed injured suffers from PTSD etc as i certainly do.

He's never worn green,I think he was a civil servent in the MOD a clerk or something

[TeeferTiger]

No place for your type here.

Where did i hear that phrase before?

I don't know where you've heard it before... but I have the urge to shout out "Tubs!"

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Mr lounge wizard you've mentioned that you know or have millitery experience than most on the forum.My dreaded thought is that you may have been in the forces yourselfs.If you have been, then you are far much worse than i first thought.
Take that back that already advised you to speak to ex war veterns,family and friends regarding this matter.As simply your attitude stinks.No place for your type here.If only you at least know someone that has been,killed injured suffers from PTSD etc as i certainly do.

I am ex military ( 3 tours (NI, FI and FRY)) and frankly I am dismayed that someone is using my service as a reason to try and bar someone from posting or airing their views.

Okay you don't agree with his position, but I served, and lost friends, for what we were told was in the defence of Free Speech and Democracy. You can have neither if you don't allow others of different political persuasions to air their views as long as they obey the rules and laws as they do so.

I firmly believe that you can honour the sacrifice of the fallen, yet be against the conflicts themselves, after all conflict with another nation is the ultimate political choice. If Lounge Lizard chooses not to donate to the poppy appeal, for political reasons, then I defend his choice to do that. I disagree with his reasons, but I can at least understand it, in fact I also donate to the white poppy appeal, along with the RBLs red one - why not War is wrong and it should be the last choice of a sane man.

In my mind you can be against war but still remember those who make the ultimate sacrifice and if Lounge Lizard did that by observing the 2 minutes silence then I applaud him, anything beyond that is a political discussion, and if anyone believes that because someone else has a different political opinion should be excluded, by definition they don't believe in Free Speech or Democracy.

[Lounge Lizard]

I remember as a teenager growing up in the 1960s the news coverage of the violent demonstrations in London against the Vietman War, this being despite Prime Minister Harold Wilson having resisted strong pressure from America for British troops to join them there, and I'm aware that many veterans returning from Vietnam to the USA were shunned and treated badly. I've no idea how things have changed so much but the opposite seems to be the case since the massive 'Not in my name' demonstrations against the Iraq invasion with the government backing something of a sycophantic attitude to our troops and everything military, attention diverted from questioning whether recent military actions should have taken place. I'm uneasy with both extremes, 1960s and now, and would have thought civilised reasoned debate to be in everyone's interest, although Andy Prentice with his "No place for your type here" comment obviously only wants his viewpoint heard.
I don't believe my previous comments to be either 'provocative' or 'inciteful' and they most certainly were not intended to be. Indeed it hadn't even occured to me that topics openly discussed in the pub might offend a few on here because of the thread in which I posted them, which is, I think, the main criticism of me.
I stated that "I stopped for two minutes remembering those I knew who fought in the First or Second World War" because that's what I could best do, not because I "only chose to remember people you knew from only the two world wars". Those on here half, or even a third of, my age may well have remembered those they knew killed or injured in more recent conflicts. Neither precludes thinking of victims of war one hasn't known personally.
Although he wouldn't talk about it I know well enough the effect the First World War, including being gassed in France, had on my grandfather for the rest of his life until death aged 90 in 1975. This, along with other things, makes me firmly believe that military action should only be a very last resort, Tony Blair sadly not having the foresight and conviction of his predecessor Harold Wilson.
For fear of Tman criticising me again for 'first person perspective' I won't elaborate on my 'experience' - so BD can carry on speculating !

[Carp]

No i did not come on here to have my viewpoint heard.I am merely speaking on behalf of past and present soldiers who deseved to be respected and reconized.Just like your grandfather did and still does.
I myself done a few tour of duties.First started whilst i was a eighteen year old in the first Gulf War,then over six years in Northern Ireland.I have diagnosed with GWS and PTSD.I will not go into detail what i've saw and how many millitery funerals,carrying my friends too the grave etc....What i'm trying to get through is the fact,because i like yourselfs disagree with involvements of sending our troops in present to the wars.
The muppets and penpushers are doing that.Not them.So i know by experience,and you ask any soldier if they want to be there,and there answer will be a straight no.They are there to do what they sighned up for.For pride and serve Queen and Country.Yes fighting for us that us whist we have the confort of arguing here on the forum.Do we feel guilty now.Then thats why every soldeir deserves there respects.
Those that are in Iraq,Alfganistan,Northern Ireland at present.I am always thinking about you and come home safe

[keithposty]

being ex- army myself and served in areas of conflicts, just remember this

people are able to air there views because people have made the ultimate sacrafice and it is there right to do so in a democratic society

tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth in the eyes of the people JOSEPH GOEBBLES
in an age of universal deciet, telling the truth is revoluionary GEORGE ORWELL

those who forget history, are destined to repeat it

AT THE GOING DOWN OF THE SUN, AND IN THE MORNING, WE WILL REMEMBER THEM

I AM PROUD TO WEAR MY SYMBOL OF ULTIMATE SACRAFICE

so you have the choice, thanks to the fallen

[Sharkeyes]

I always stop regardless.

[Lounge Lizard]

Again this year I shall stop for two minutes in respect of those who died in the two world wars but shall NOT buy a poppy.
I expect poppy sales will be down given all the negative publicity of RBL's advertising campaign this year and yet more stories of 'Poppy Fascism' including the BBC and Channel 4 instructing their staff to wear poppies when on TV, not the sort of freedom that many lost their lives for.
The Jeremy Vine Show on Radio 2 today carried quite a good balanced debate on this subject.

[NWpostie]

Again this year I shall stop for two minutes in respect of those who died in the two world wars but shall NOT buy a poppy.
I expect poppy sales will be down given all the negative publicity of RBL's advertising campaign this year and yet more stories of 'Poppy Fascism' including the BBC and Channel 4 instructing their staff to wear poppies when on TV, not the sort of freedom that many lost their lives for.
The Jeremy Vine Show on Radio 2 today carried quite a good balanced debate on this subject.

You don't "buy" a poppy, its given away in return for a voluntary donation, you don't have to have a poppy but please do donate to the fund to help wounded, disabled Veterans from the past, present and the future, they made the sacrifice on behalf of us, they did not choose and cannot decide which war to fight, Governments start wars, Soldiers fight them.

I personally have donated to the Help for heroes, assisted the British Legion over the past 2 weeks distributing poppies and collecting donations, some have even donated £10, £5 and only took one Poppy or have declined a Poppy, it is true that the poorest are the most generous and the amount of money donated is truly humbling, all of which goes to where its most needed.

Thats why you don't actually "buy" a Poppy it is just a proof that you have made a donation, you can choose not to wear yet still make a donation knowing you have contributed the ex servicemen's welfare.


As it was said in the Kohima address When you go home, tell them of us "for your tomorrow they gave their today" true then and still true today.