ANNOUNCEMENT : ALL OF ROYAL MAIL'S EMPLOYMENT POLICIES (AGREEMENTS) AT A GLANCE (Updated 2021)... HERE

ANNOUNCEMENT : PLEASE BE AWARE WE ARE NOT ON FACEBOOK AT ALL!

HOLIDAYS NO LONGER DONE ON SENIORITY

Got a question for a CWU Rep? And all CWU related matters.
Cut Off King
Posts: 1078
Joined: 23 Jun 2009, 21:18
Gender: Female

Re: HOLIDAYS NO LONGER DONE ON SENIORITY

Post by Cut Off King »

clashcityrocker wrote:Doesn't the introduction of Park and Loop with the necessity of not having all your drivers off at the same time make this whole seniority for holidays thing redundant anyway?
I don't see why it should, Management should have enough leave reserves trained up to cover for this situation :Very Happy
Martin Walsh
Posts: 4256
Joined: 19 Sep 2007, 20:12
Location: neverland

Re: HOLIDAYS NO LONGER DONE ON SENIORITY

Post by Martin Walsh »

Minster , let's get something straight the equal opportunities commission supports seniority use. Trevor Philips spoke in favour of this method.

Now you ask if the CWU are in favour of seniority for promotion , well let's be clear if seniority was not in place then I believe that we would have managers selecting who they for jobs. How can that be fair ?

Now I have dealt with plenty of industrial relations reviews when managment were favouring their mates to the detriment of others and I have even seen cases where managers were giving out the best duties to whites.

So seniority does not discriminate on age , colour , race , gender , it does not equally allow managers to choose who they favour.

Minster you work in supply chain which is different to what's happening in Royal Mail. Nownyou say does CWU have seniority for reps , no we stand for election and we get voted in by the members. The reality of the situation is that elections do not favour anyone , it favours those who decide to vote.

In terms of the latest cash supply deal well there is a national briefing in Manchester on Wednesday and then it will go out for a membership vote , so you and your office can have their say on the agreement. However I think the separation of POLL from Royal Mail is far more of a threat for you if they restrict what's in the inter business agreement.
Martin Walsh
Posts: 4256
Joined: 19 Sep 2007, 20:12
Location: neverland

Re: HOLIDAYS NO LONGER DONE ON SENIORITY

Post by Martin Walsh »

Clash why would you not have a separate leave spread for all those HCT walks less than a mile from an office with a separate reserve list. Than a separate leave spread for CDV drivers with a separate leave spread , then a separate leave spread for the CDV assistants and a separate reserve pool and then one for normal firms vans.

Then once you have agreed your leave spread for each of these you select your first two weeks annual leave in seniority across even the 48 or 50 weeks of the year and then once every one has selected their two weeks off of choice you do the same for the next two weeks and then again for those who have more than 4 weeks leave or have bought leave. This can be varied by having the signings after 4 weeks on a weekly basis.
fishtank
Posts: 19732
Joined: 28 Sep 2007, 17:22
Gender: Male

Re: HOLIDAYS NO LONGER DONE ON SENIORITY

Post by fishtank »

dingo wrote: So seniority does not discriminate on age.
Yes it does...but it is exempted under Regulation 32 Exception for provision of certain benefits based on length of service.

The aim of exemption is to enable employers to continue to award benefits to employees using the criterion of length of service....but preferential Holiday Allocation is NOT an agreed employee benefit in Royal Mail.
That's why seniority was removed for holiday allocation under the way forward...and that's why it shouldn't be used now.
Not because seniority in itself is unlawful but the misuse of it to provide unfair advantage over an unagreed fringe benefit certainly is.
You should know that. :cuppa
good times, bad times you know I've had my share
MinisterofCucumber
Posts: 806
Joined: 15 Dec 2009, 22:18
Gender: Male

Re: HOLIDAYS NO LONGER DONE ON SENIORITY

Post by MinisterofCucumber »

Hello Dingo,

Have you got a link for the Trevor Philips quote?

I found this on the Equality and Human rights commission's website:

"You should check that men and women, white and ethnic minority employees, disabled and non-disabled, of differing age groups and contractual status with comparable lengths of service and doing like work, or in the same grade or band, receive equal average pay. If one of those groups clusters at a particular point compared to other comparable groups you need to investigate why this is.

In Crossley and Others v ACAS 1999 (Birmingham ET 1304744/98) Ms Crossley was paid less than two male comparators. All three were on pay grade eight but as the men had progressed further up the pay scale they earned about £3000 a year more. Ms Crossley had had similar performance appraisal markings to the men in a system where pay progression depended on performance. The men had worked for the organisation longer and so had been rewarded for their longer service.

The tribunal held that Ms Crossley had the necessary experience to justify the same basic salary as the comparators and was equally able to carry out the duties of the grade. The tribunal did not accept that there was any 'objective justification' for the difference.

Seniority or length of service may not be a satisfactory explanation for differences in pay. Length of service is a factor which, as the example shows, may be considered to discriminate unfairly against one sex or the other. You need to consider what you are really rewarding; is it loyalty, experience, performance or competence?"

http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/hafa ... ogression/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Elections do not favour anyone and that is why the CWU branches like to nominate only one candidate for elections so that the candidate gets elected unopposed. How do they decide who gets the nomination? Seniority, I bet.

From the CWU LTB 726/11 Postal Services Act – Post Office Limited Separation and Mutualisation:

"In relation to this condition and the possibility of sharing profits among members, the report suggests a ‘give-away’ of profits would be difficult to reconcile with the purpose of the mutual to act in the public benefit and that the decision making process to make a distribution – if this was provided for in the constitution – would need to adequately safeguard the purpose of the mutual. However, it suggests ‘contractual performance-related payments to employees sub-postmasters or multiples’, which are conditional upon the business being profitable, or making customer loyalty payments, would not fall under condition C and would be permissible."

From the BIS consultation document:

"Distributions – there may well be a legitimate public interest in permitting some limited rewards to be paid out of profits to participants in the business.

It will be a matter for the Secretary of State to decide whether this would be compatible
with the commitment to public benefit;

If such distributions are to be permitted:

Parameters will need to be set out in the constitution;

The process for deciding about such distributions will need to be specified;

Such parameters and process will need to properly protect the public benefit."

http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/bu ... office.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Condition C mentioned in the CWU LTB:

"Meaning of “relevant mutual”

(1)In section 4 “relevant mutual” means a body in respect of which the Secretary of State considers that conditions A to C are (and will continue to be) met.

(2)Condition A is that the purpose (or main purpose) for which the body exists is to act for the public benefit by promoting the use by the public of services provided by a Post Office company or at its post offices.

(3)Condition B is that the members of the body are—

(a)persons who have an interest in the use by the public of such services (including employees of the Post Office company and other persons engaged in the provision of its post offices), or

(b)persons who act on behalf of, or represent, persons within paragraph (a).

(4)Condition C is that the body has in place arrangements for the prevention of disposals of property or rights by the Post Office company that would be inconsistent with the purpose (or main purpose) for which the body exists."

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/201 ... /7/enacted" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"You wanna f**k with me? Okay. You wanna play rough? Okay. Say hello to my little friend!" - Tony Montana
fishtank
Posts: 19732
Joined: 28 Sep 2007, 17:22
Gender: Male

Re: HOLIDAYS NO LONGER DONE ON SENIORITY

Post by fishtank »

Equality Act 2010 Chapter 15 Schedule 9 — Work: exceptions
Part 2 — Exceptions relating to age
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/201 ... 015_en.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Benefits based on length of service
10 (1) It is not an age contravention for a person (A) to put a person (B) at a disadvantage when compared with another (C), in relation to the provision of a benefit, facility or service in so far as the disadvantage is because B has
a shorter period of service than C.
(2) If B’s period of service exceeds 5 years, A may rely on sub-paragraph (1) only if A reasonably believes that doing so fulfils a business need.
(3) A person’s period of service is whichever of the following A chooses—(a) the period for which the person has been working for A at or above a level (assessed by reference to the demands made on the person) that A reasonably regards as appropriate for the purposes of this paragraph, or
(b) the period for which the person has been working for A at any level.
(4) The period for which a person has been working for A must be based on the number of weeks during the whole or part of which the person has worked for A.
(5) But for that purpose A may, so far as is reasonable, discount—
(a) periods of absence;
(b) periods that A reasonably regards as related to periods of absence.
(6) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (3)(b), a person is to be treated as having worked for A during any period in which the person worked for a person other than A if—
(a) that period counts as a period of employment with A as a result of section 218 of the Employment Rights Act 1996, or
(b) if sub-paragraph (a) does not apply, that period is treated as a period of employment by an enactment pursuant to which the person’s employment was transferred to A.
(7) For the purposes of this paragraph, the reference to a benefit, facility or
service does not include a reference to a benefit, facility or service which may
be provided only by virtue of a person’s ceasing to work.

So what part of Holiday Allocation by Seniority can reasonably be said to fulfil a business need?

I'm afraid the union has this badly wrong dingo and it's only a matter of time. :whistle
good times, bad times you know I've had my share
Big Daz
Posts: 5668
Joined: 17 Apr 2007, 20:27
Gender: Male

Re: HOLIDAYS NO LONGER DONE ON SENIORITY

Post by Big Daz »

Further reading can be found within the LRD law at work 2011 publication, section 6 titled dscrimination.
youwot!!!!!
MAIL CENTRES/PROCESSING
Posts: 582
Joined: 12 Mar 2010, 14:45
Gender: Male
Location: oop north

Re: HOLIDAYS NO LONGER DONE ON SENIORITY

Post by youwot!!!!! »

sorry but i've lost the will to live!!!!! :arrrghhh
who the hell invests £2 billion into a servic and makes it worse?????????????
you really couldn't make it up!!!!!!!!!!!
fishtank
Posts: 19732
Joined: 28 Sep 2007, 17:22
Gender: Male

Re: HOLIDAYS NO LONGER DONE ON SENIORITY

Post by fishtank »

youwot!!!!! wrote:sorry but i've lost the will to live!!!!! :arrrghhh
Is that a comment on the thread or a genuine cry for help?
If it's the former why bother?...if you don't want to read it...don't.
If it's the latter... http://www.samaritans.org/?gclid=COHSr9 ... fAod9SMIAg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Good luck and i hope you're feeling better soon. :wave
good times, bad times you know I've had my share
User avatar
POSTMAN
SITE ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 32641
Joined: 07 Aug 2006, 03:19
Gender: Male

Re: HOLIDAYS NO LONGER DONE ON SENIORITY

Post by POSTMAN »

No doubt he read it in his break.
I Wrote-During Covid-Which is still relevant now
It's good to get these types of threads, the ridiculous my manager said bollox, so we can reassure ourselves that while the world is falling apart, Royal Mail managers are still being the low-life C***S they have always been.
My BFF Clash
The daily grind of having to argue your case with an intellectual pigmy of a line manager is physically and emotionally draining.
MinisterofCucumber
Posts: 806
Joined: 15 Dec 2009, 22:18
Gender: Male

Re: HOLIDAYS NO LONGER DONE ON SENIORITY

Post by MinisterofCucumber »

youwot!!!!! wrote:sorry but i've lost the will to live!!!!! :arrrghhh
:funneh

You are right, these legalistic documents have been made deliberately difficult so that we have to rely on summaries from the powerful that are not always accurate.

Unfortunately, unless you are prepared to spend some time getting your head round these government documents, you have to assume that the Union and management have got it right and are leading you down the right path.
"You wanna f**k with me? Okay. You wanna play rough? Okay. Say hello to my little friend!" - Tony Montana
youwot!!!!!
MAIL CENTRES/PROCESSING
Posts: 582
Joined: 12 Mar 2010, 14:45
Gender: Male
Location: oop north

Re: HOLIDAYS NO LONGER DONE ON SENIORITY

Post by youwot!!!!! »

POSTMAN wrote:No doubt he read it in his break.

actually it took ALL 3 breaks to read through this crap.
who the hell invests £2 billion into a servic and makes it worse?????????????
you really couldn't make it up!!!!!!!!!!!
fishtank
Posts: 19732
Joined: 28 Sep 2007, 17:22
Gender: Male

Re: HOLIDAYS NO LONGER DONE ON SENIORITY

Post by fishtank »

youwot!!!!! wrote:
POSTMAN wrote:No doubt he read it in his break.

actually it took ALL 3 breaks to read through this crap.
Why did you bother?
It's not as if you were going to add anything to it.
good times, bad times you know I've had my share
TrueBlueTerrier
FORUM ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 72436
Joined: 30 Dec 2006, 10:29
Gender: Male
Location: On my couch

Re: HOLIDAYS NO LONGER DONE ON SENIORITY

Post by TrueBlueTerrier »

youwot!!!!! wrote:
POSTMAN wrote:No doubt he read it in his break.

actually it took ALL 3 breaks to read through this crap.

Ah I love it when people show such appreciation for others efforts in trying to inform people. :sad: Sometimes it really is a thankless task, but that's better than being told its crap. :sad:
All post by me in Green are Admin Posts.
Any post in any other colour is my own responsibility.
If you like a news story I posted please click the link to show support Any news stories you can't post - PM me with a link
My sharing of news articles should not be interpreted as an endorsement or condemnation of any particular viewpoint or the issues presented. I share them solely for informational purposes.
youwot!!!!!
MAIL CENTRES/PROCESSING
Posts: 582
Joined: 12 Mar 2010, 14:45
Gender: Male
Location: oop north

Re: HOLIDAYS NO LONGER DONE ON SENIORITY

Post by youwot!!!!! »

fishtank wrote:
youwot!!!!! wrote:
POSTMAN wrote:No doubt he read it in his break.

actually it took ALL 3 breaks to read through this crap.
Why did you bother?
It's not as if you were going to add anything to it.

because without reading it i couldn't know if i could add anything to it.
unlike you who are obviously a smart-arse and knows everything
who the hell invests £2 billion into a servic and makes it worse?????????????
you really couldn't make it up!!!!!!!!!!!