HOLIDAYS NO LONGER DONE ON SENIORITY

[fishtank]

Now Fishtank the principles does not state you had to get rid of seniority.

Annual leave selection process principles:

• Leave will be organised within the existing organisational structure of the office, e.g. work areas for Mail Centres and RDCs, Delivery sections in large Delivery units and across the whole office in other Delivery offices.

• In all cases, the line manager/staff Resourcing manager will need to ensure specialist areas are always adequately covered, e.g. drivers, rurals, VCS, mech.

• All employees will be included on an equal basis, whether full- or part-time.

• Reserves will be allocated to work area and with that, specialist groups where needed, but reserves may be required to work within other work areas for the coverage of unforeseen absence and short-time sick absence.

• Operational requirements within the work area will determine the maximum number of people that may be away at any one time. This will be based on:

- Forecast variations in workload during the year including event forecasting such as peak traffic periods, Bank Holidays etc;
- forecast sick absence;
- training and substitution absence;
- the resulting leave reserve level and supplementary staffing.


Note also that seniority will not be used for leave selection (except possibly to allocate employees
into rotating groups) once local leave selection processes have been reviewed. This will be
necessary to conform with the criteria set out in the agreement on Annual Leave: “all employees will be included on an equal basis”


And from Martins document that you stated allowed for seniority despite there not being a mention of it.

All annual leave must comply with the Annual Leave Agreement contained within the Way Forward Agreement.
Agreements will be tested against the provision of the Way Forward Agreement and specifically for conformity against...

Maximum choice for all employees.
Operational needs and the customer needs are met at all times.
includes all employees on an equal basis,whether full or part-time.
maintenance of appropriate skill levels.

I don't think that's ambiguous dingo...unless you want it to be.
Am i surprised that where it suited "members" it was allowed to fester...not really but this wasn't about member choice it was about working outside national agreements or at best twisting and manipulating them to suit..
What happens when the members in a unit decide that the overtime should be allocated using seniority...is that ok as long as it's what they want.?
No wonder this union is fragmenting on a daily basis.

[Martin Walsh]

Fishtank the union has always been a federal mix , remember this was in 2001. You have failed to point out where it says you cannot use seniority.

The key is treating peope fairly is to ensure that all the members in a unit get their first 3 weeks of choice in line with the principles. It can be demonstrated that some turn systems mean that individuals can only get their first 3 choices every other year whereas if you allow everyone in an office to sign for 2 weeks in seniority order either as a whole office or in groups on seniority you can assure every year they get what they want.

The Pay and Mod agreement which allows for extra leave slots in Summer helps this further.

Now what this seems to me Fish is that you want every office to adopt the two options in the way forward agreement even thou members rejected this.

Equally why should you now care as this is no longer on Royal Mail's agenda and the members in the offices are not screaming for change either.

[clashcityrocker]

Note also that seniority will not be used for leave selection

[fishtank]

Equally why should you now care as this is no longer on Royal Mail's agenda and the members in the offices are not screaming for change either.

I care dingo because if we don't apply agreements properly we can hardly bitch about it when Royal Mail don't.

Do the members want change?
Not all of them that's for sure,certainly not those unfairly advantaged by the system.
Does that matter?...no...because if i came across one single member disadvantaged by an unfair and unagreed process implemented by Royal Mail i would care...why should the fact that it's implemented by the union make me turn a blind eye.
As i've told you before i'm a Trade Unionist first and a CWU member second.

[MinisterofCucumber]

We are meant to be a Trade Union and follow the principles of trade unionism. That's what makes us different from other organised groups of people.

Sometimes it seems as though the CWU will do anything to keep members subs and allows itself to be bullied by groups of people to make local agreements that benefit one group of members over another.

If local reps support seniority, they may avoid conflict with their members but they will lose credibility if they want to argue against other forms of inequality?

Seniority, overtime, cushy duties for you and your relatives and annual leave when you want it = Bought Men and Women who are more loyal to the employer than the Union

[keithposty]

Seniority, overtime, cushy duties for you and your relatives and annual leave when you want it = Bought Men and Women who are more loyal to the employer than the Union

not in my office

not all reps are in it for themself

remember

a local agreement overides statute provision

[POSTMAN]

So an agreement was voted in by the members,then some decided it wasn't for them,threw a strop,got things changed.
Just curious,where were these stroppies during P&M and BT 2010?

[keithposty]

some of us did throw our toys out the pram, not enough though

i was on all the keep the post public demo's etc

you see all the same face though, if you are a rep, stand up for what you believe in

its not a 6 to 2 job but a commitment

the issue on the leave in my office was not by any agreement, we just maintained the status quo for the last 11 years and it is

custom and practice now

[Martin Walsh]

Postman don't be silly , if they decided to say no and do something about it they could not come on here and moan and groan.

Sometimes I do think we must be in a different union or we must have different reps and members because even the so called weaker offices in London would not stand by and allow Royal Mail to get away with the things that some come on here and then have the gall to blame CWU HQs for making them have it.

Fish I am a trade unionist as well but I don't see how giving someone a turn system is fairer than seniority if both get the choice of leave they want.

We have seniority for VR , we have seniority on resigns and mini resigns , the SA agreement actually mentions seniority. There is nothing wrong with seniority and plenty of offices have proven in the past that you can have a fair system which is better than the systems others deployed after the way forward but still have seniority in the first signing.

[fishtank]

Fish I am a trade unionist as well but I don't see how giving someone a turn system is fairer than seniority if both get the choice of leave they want.

Neither system can guarantee everyone can get their first 3 weeks.
In fact no system can make that guarantee.

That is when seniority fails because only the most senior are absolutely guaranteed anything year after year after year.....
In a turn based system at least everyone is treated on a fair and equal basis even if they do not get what they want.

[MinisterofCucumber]

Perhaps Dingo is defending seniority because it's the system used by CWU branches to nominate candidates for CWU elections. This is the reason a lot of our leading representatives have gained their positions despite only possessing average capabilities. The England football team seems to use seniority as the main criteria for selection too and that's why we can't win anything.

The CWU should oppose seniority because it's unfair and it's the same argument that is used by racist nationalist political parties to justify their policies.

Do the CWU agree that council houses should be dished out according to seniority or need?

Do the CWU agree that promotion should be based on seniority rather than capability and aptitude?

The CWU has just negotiated a pay deal for Supply Chain in POL that has a 3 year bonus scheme 'string' attached in which the amount of bonus that gets paid out depends on what pay grade a member is. The CWU negotiators and the PEC have agreed to the principle of 'fat cat' bonus schemes and this contradicts the statements made by the General Secretary on the CWU website. This Supply Chain bonus scheme is important because when the Post Office becomes a mutual, the rules of any bonus scheme will be written into the constitution. The BIS consultation process does not finish until December 12th. If this pay deal goes through, management will use it to argue their case when they beg the Secretary of State for a 'fat cat' bonus scheme and the CWU will get the blame. Management even persuaded our negotiators to sign a joint statement that the CWU were responsible for including POL Admin members in this deal so that a majority of POL employees will be balloted.

Are the negotiators and the PEC corrupt?

No.

Are they stupid?

Yes.

[Cut Off King]

dingo wrote :

Sometimes I do think we must be in a different union or we must have different reps and members

No, we are in the same union, but your in the "London" branch and we're all in the "Everywhere else" branch

Same union, just different rules.

I suppose its because your members will ballot at the drop of a hat, and ours will nearly drop down dead before asking for a ballot ( even then they grumble about losing money )

[clashcityrocker]

Doesn't the introduction of Park and Loop with the necessity of not having all your drivers off at the same time make this whole seniority for holidays thing redundant anyway?

[Cut Off King]

By the way Dingo,

Could you post a copy of a Holiday aggrement that use's seniority so that we can go to our Reps / Area Reps and ask for this to be implemented up and down the country.
After all, If London can have such an agreement the why can't we?

[fishtank]

Doesn't the introduction of Park and Loop with the necessity of not having all your drivers off at the same time make this whole seniority for holidays thing redundant anyway?

I'm sure another fudge will be along shortly.
Perhaps junior members will have to walk,it's only fair,we've all been there.