Petition against Hayes/Ward

[POSTMAN]

lets get our own liddle DO houses in order 1st before shooting the top table.
Too many glass houses in offices up and down the land.

You're absolutely right POSTMAN.
What we should do is every office should get together in some kind of..."club"..maybe elect a spokesperson to convey our problems to local management and these "spokespeople" could maybe get together and form some kind of "Area Club" and we could elect one or two of them to run it and they could maybe pass on our worries to the Area Managers then the "Area Clubs" could form some kind of "National Club" who could convey our problems to the big bosses.
We could all kick in a couple of quid a week just to keep it ticking over.
I'm struggling for a name for the "club" though.

Like it,good idea,with any luck the local club and those in it wont be the bunch of wasters we have now up and down the land.

A weren't always a bunch of wasters...what happened?

Job changed,job got harder,got to work our hrs now,not a major prob for some,but for the others...

[fishtank]

Job changed,job got harder,got to work our hrs now,not a major prob for some,but for the others...

Nah....they were always a mercenary bunch when it came to who did what...something else has changed.
Bullying has gone through the roof,managers now are complete w*****s,people don't want the aggro and they think the union is weak as piss against bullying.

[Danelectro]

Job changed,job got harder,got to work our hrs now,not a major prob for some,but for the others...

Nah....they were always a mercenary bunch when it came to who did what...something else has changed.
Bullying has gone through the roof,managers now are complete w*****s,people don't want the aggro and they think the union is weak as piss against bullying.

have to agree with your points fishtank,postman seems to have had a change of mind on some o the union issues,
has Dave Ward been round for beer and sandwiches? Yes there is apathy and indiscipline and sheer stupidity from
members regarding how they do the job and their lack of involvement in the union locally,but its nothing new
theres been a vacuum there for years and the leadership were happy to let it slide and when it came to the last deal....
well look where we are now? race to the bottom?or necessary compromise?

[parky]

The thing I really like about this idea Fishtank is you have completely done away with the Divisional "Club"
f***ing waste of time they are.

mother you must be nw/nw

[POSTMAN]

Whoa there i haven't changed my mind about anything.

Kick HQ all you like,fair enough they need it,but we don't help ourselves.

The job is a joke a lot of times cause too many don't give a f**k about what is going on around them,too many reps and members rushing out the door.
There is enough on this site to see what is going on.Not going to waste my time writing it all up.

Where's your rep and where's your colleagues i can type with my eyes closed now.

[Martin Walsh]

When you become a leader as both Billy and Dave have become , you have to deal with the facts in front of you. You dont have the luxury to ingnore certain things which is happening to the business.

For example when the business says it is bringing in ILSMs , its bringing in CSS machines and therefore it is going to have to change its workplan to maximise the work performed by the machines its bought then what is the union going to say. No you cannot invest in this machines ? Once you accept that prinicple that the company due to the pressures from Hooper and likes were going to be automated then there are just two models in Europe the part time model ie the Dutch model where all the sequencing is done from the morniing meaning no early starts and most staff are part time , or the one which the CWU negotiated and this was work done in two waves with an agreement which protected a national 75 /25 full and part time ratio , that starts times should be no later than 0700. Of course the union could not force Royal Mail to turn the machines off on saturday so of course this does mean that later finishes on saturday would become the norm. Now its easy to criticise the union about this but tell me another union which has forced a company to stop introducing automation ? It just does not happen.

Secondly if the indoor hourage is reducing due to the fact that your second batch is coming in later than of course to mantian a full time job you may have to look at a later start. However that longer span must mean that your fratigue and your delivery methods must be right. Now equally the union who has been campaigning against cars on delivery for years and we all know how many people drove them on delivery, how could they then say we want to stop Royal Mail investing in CDVs and stopping indivduals using their cars. Now we all know park and loop is not popular and in the 150 plus units it has been introduced it has been a mixed bag ranging from disasters to working reasonsbly well. So what did people want the union to argue against investing in CDVs and delivery methods and saying we want to stay the same ?

Now I totally accept as a leadership CWU HQs will be criticised and that has always happened , and some of that is justfiable and some of it natural. But equally as a rep and someone who visits lots of offices I know the agreement gives enough arguements for offices to argue against unreasonable workloads , to ensure the 1 in 4 is in and to protect the membership from managements agenda of 100 BSI etc. You can use the framework , you can refuse to agree , it is the local reps and memberships right to vote on the office revison , you can say no to the area rep and you can say no to the divisional reps. All be it from a London`s point of view no area rep or divisional rep would do that in any case.

So I do believe in collective responsibility and whilst CWU HQs can be blame for a lot of things , some people have also got to look at themselves in the mirror as well. Oh and some have to look at the state of the industry and think that Royal Mail is fast becoming a basket case , and cannot afford any pension payback past March next year , and cannot afford to pay back the loan to the Government for buying the machines and if the European Union does not give state aid then the industry really is in the most serious trouble ever and if the European Union decides we need resuce aid then this protentially means the end of our pensions and the break up of the company as Europe will decide.

So I do think sometime being need to look serious at the challenges which the industry is facing and then view them against what the union has agreed. Yes the agreement has changed working pratices and yes no one likes change but what would you have suggusted the union did given the fact that Royal Mail were deploying new machines , CDVs etc ? Would be intrested to have some constructive suggustions. This site has far to many moaners and groaners without enough suggusting an alternative.

[Danelectro]

I do take all your points Dingo,call it moaning if you want but one my suggestions is to get a clear agreement on the use of BSI,the fact is it is getting put in at 100 BSI in revisions and i dont see why some offices or areas should be put to the sword because area reps dont go to disagreement over it or because you work in an office of numpties who dont want to do the job properly and dont bother getting involved with revisions and back local reps.

If the financial state of Royal Mail is so precarious then why are revisions being put in that are costing a kings ransom
in overtime and at the end of it still dont work? also Royal mails new business plan-whats the story there?

in my area when the London dispute was on all revisions were slowed down and disagreements lodged as soon as the
London dispute was cleared up then the disagreements vanished and the attitude is they probably wont work but put
them in anyway and deal with the resulting mess.I am not asking for anything that you wouldnt be asking for in London.

So in a nutshell no revision put in at more than 85 BSI on IWT with this being reviewed a year after revision is implemented.

[dvbuk55]

Well one suggestion would be stop becoming an apologist for poor National decisions and at HQ level stop being hoodwinked by Royal Mail. RM are treating the CWU as a willing partner in all the modernisation plans, whereas the CWU should be looking at the terms and conditions of its members.

75/25 split? That was a national split which has done nothing for the offices which had already been on less than that and continue to be eroded week on week. It would be interesting to see the split area by area.

Lets have the consultation. Lets have some communication.

And leadership? Well it is debatable as to whether the leadership is in ensuring the CWU conditions thrive at the expense of the general membership.

[fishtank]

How many of those 150+ DM revisions have been introduced in London?
..or is it only the rest of the country that has to be pragmatic?
What's the hold up this time?...no planners?...progressing FTC's?..or just don't fancy it?

[TrueBlueTerrier]

When you become a leader as both Billy and Dave have become , you have to deal with the facts in front of you. You dont have the luxury to ingnore certain things which is happening to the business.......................

post trimmed for brevity.

This is only my personal opinion but perhaps the approach of "We cant change what's happening, lets lessen the damage to our members" was the wrong one. Perhaps a "Royal Mail need changes, lets get the best we can for our members" would have produced a different agreement .

[Martin Walsh]

Dvbuk I am not an apologist for CWU HQs or indeed Dave and Billy. Anyone who know my identity will know that I give my vew on when I think they are right and when I think they are wrong. I represent the views of London`s Branch`s and members and not just my own view which is what a reprsentive should. Equally sometimes you have to tell the members that they are wrong as well. Especially those who continue to chase time and then moan that management are doing absorption.

However the difference is that I dont think that CWU HQ or Dave and Billy are at fault for everything which happens in every delivery office in the UK , mail centre or RDC. That simply is not true. Members , Unit reps , Area reps , Branch`s and Divisional reps have all got a role to play. The London Divsional Committee which is made up of all Branch`s in the London Post Code area ensures that all local reps are supported and equally the members are represented. Now I know some divisonal committee also do this but maybe some do not. This is not a reason to change this structure but it is a case that those divisons which are not working in this way should have to start ensuring that their divisons provide suitable support for branch`s and that branch`s support unit reps and members.

In terms the 75-25 split being a national figure , of course it is as each region or divison started at a different level. The North East being over 50% , followed closely by the North West and Scotland and Northern Ireland and then in Essex , South East and Greater London and the London post code areas having above 90% full timers. The National figure means that whilst some offices will increase in full timers in some localities there will be a reduction in others.

In terms of your issue of more consultation I am in agreement there should be more and more communication from CWU HQs.

Now lets examine the BTA agreement , it is Royal Mail who believe that it wont deliver what they wanted and its them who has now changes their new business plan. Now some do argue it because the CWU have put in place a revison process in deliveries which has meant that Royal Mail have not been able to introduce what they wanted.

Now Leadership is sometime about telling the facts to people rather than telling people what they want to hear. I think most of us who now know the seriousness of what the industry and those of us who are employed in it are facing will now recognise that facing away from further change is not going to work. What we do have to do is make sure that further changes are right for everyone that includes those changes which will happen with Europe.

[fishtank]

Now lets examine the BTA agreement , it is Royal Mail who believe that it wont deliver what they wanted and its them who has now changes their new business plan. Now some do argue it because the CWU have put in place a revison process in deliveries which has meant that Royal Mail have not been able to introduce what they wanted.

The union was warned that if Royal Mail didn't get what they wanted(savings) they would move the goalposts,change the rules or simply abandon this plan and move onto the next....they did and they have.
They are now working completely outside the BTA and members are no longer receiving the dubious benefits or protection promised under the agreement.
If you want to dress that up as a success...be my guest.
What next from the new business plan?
More downdialling of members terms and conditions?...what price the mandatory use of trolleys and the introduction of 100BSI(or another name for it).
Will park&loop ever make it to the smoke,will it be withdrawn in areas where it has already been implemented?
Will the bullying culture that has grown even more rampant since the BTA ever be addressed.
Tell us some of those facts....they are much more relevant to your members than "the business is a basketcase"
The membership in some areas haven't faced away from change,we have implemented the word and spirit of the agreement...other areas...not so much with the change.

[Martin Walsh]

Fishtank there have been two delivery methods revisons introduced in London and they have both worked. There are a few more revisions which are there for introduction but are locked into the fixed term contract issue. Now the fixed term contract issue is what makes a strong trade union , no one in London will introduce a revison until those who have been in post more than two years have been made up. Now tell me where that would happen elsewhere ?

Now TBT I think thats what the union did do and thats why they sold the agreement as such. This was not sold on the basis that this was the best the union could get , it was sold on the basis of it being a good agreement based on the circumstances which the union were facing.

Of course people who are not involved in the talks can be critical but the realitiy is that if you ever have been involved in negotiations then you know that it becomes a comprimise , no one side gets 100% what they want otherwise it would not be an agreement , the key is to get to a point where you think that you have got the best you can without a dispute and then let the members and executive decide whether its good enough.

I have always said that this agreement will be judged on how this agreement is viewed over a period of time. The fact that the posts on this site have moved away from lets get rid of the agreement to lets make sure we get the lump sums , the shorter working week , the 1 in 4 Saturdays etc is a total change around to the posts of last year.

Lets see how things go but I do believe that people need to wake up the real threat of what the euopean union does to the industry.

[Martin Walsh]

Fishtank , It is strange that as someone from an area where we do not allow management to do what they want any time they want seems to get the stick and abuse for all the ills of the union and Royal Mail in the UK.

Now lets see , Royal Mail are trying to bend and break the rules on the BTA agreement , well tell me an agreement where they have not done so , in the same way good cwu branch`s will have policies which they push on behalf of their members. Now there is a joint statement which allows for further talks. Royal Mail do now want to concentrate on indoor and not out door revisons. Now we all know that this is a change of tack and needs to be tackled and hopefully the national talks will do this.

Now park and loop in London has happened and both Wimbledon and Streatham were introduced in 2009 by executive action. However based on the criteria of walks futher than a mile from the office the amount of CDVs in London are not massive and are mainly based on offices who are based outside their post code. But for example the West London Delivery Office which has 6 delivery offices in but is based in NW10 has introduced two cdv revisons.

Now I hate bullying and the fact it is still happening in this industry is a failure of the whole of the union and and damming indicment of the business and needs to be stopped. The problem is how do we stop it. We had the Lord Sawyer IR / ER review which was independent but never stop the bullying , so how can we stop it or do we accept in an industry with 170,000 employees including managers it will always happen. Lets not forget there is as much bullying between members that exists as by managers according to the national have your say surveys.

As regards to you point about some areas facing away from change , well I assume you mean London , well we have introduce lots of self starter revisons until we realised that Royal Mail were not going to make up those fixed term contract staff who have done two years. We then carried a policy which says until they are made up then there will be no further revisons. Now like I said before that is what a trade union should be about , protecting those who want a job.

Now I do believe its worth telling the members the truth about the finances of the industry and what the postion is around the state aid issue or do you perfer us to all keep silent and keep our members in the dark ? Do they deserve to know or does it not suit you arguement that they do know ?

[fishtank]

We then carried a policy which says until they are made up then there will be no further revisons. Now like I said before that is what a trade union should be about , protecting those who want a job.

I totally agree with you.
The question is...why isn't it a national policy?
The answer is..the union is split,pulling in different directions with differing agendas.
It was you that brought up the issue of facing change and even you will admit London has so far faced the least,believe it or not i don't blame London for that but you have to understand that other areas are facing a far different situation.
Units like mine need national clarity because we cannot rely on strong area and divisional support,why that is would be an entirely separate thread which i really don't want to get into in public....
Unfortunately all we see at national level is dithering or complete silence.
As for the need to tell the members the truth about the financial position....i think they got that message a long time ago but they have sacrificed enough to prop up the company in the last 5 years so i'm afraid that particular cupboard is bare.