BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets

[Tman]

1. The unqualified immigrants did the jobs (and still do) a lot of whities didn't want to - cleaners, bus drivers, agricultural labourers, unsocial hours etc etc.

Maybe if those jobs had better pay and conditions "whities" (whoever they may be) would do them, but in the meantime you think it's OK giving the worst paying/most menial jobs to immigrants? Sounds like Right Wing Capitalism at it's worst to me.

2. The qualified immigrants bring a wealth of knowledge and research - medicine, mathematics etc etc

True, they do, but shouldn't they be doing that in thier "home" countries where there's a shortage of such trained people, rather than in the higher-waged West?

3. Your "cuisine" has been enhanced by the availabilty of chickken tikka masala, though stir fries have taken over in popularity as a healthier option.

Curry was popular in Victorian times. There's no requirement for the originators of dishes to actually live here, it now being a global economy.

4. We now have the Notting Hill Carnival instead of some Morris Dancers.

At least you can choose to see or do Morris dancing....the residents of Notting Hill haven't that choice, and many seen to find the whole event less than welcome, but who is to say one is in any way "better" than the other?

5. Many sports (football,cricket,athletics) have been improved by immigrants, raising the standard for whities to aspire to and to allow your little country to stand proud on a national stage.

"Whities" "little country"? Sounds like your argument is shot, to me.
The term "darkies" is for the ignorant, so why use "whities"? The old reverse prejudice in action again. for sure.

[fishtank]

Tman wrote:
So to play the Devil's Advocate, exactly how have the millions of Asian and Afro-Caribbean immigrants enriched Britain? Politicians often say it, but never choose to explain in depth...

Just for the sake of parity,in the same time period and because i like to play the Devil's Advocate as well, exactly how have the millions of indigenous peoples enriched Britain? Politicians often say it, but never choose to explain in depth...

[TrueBlueTerrier]

How has immigration enriched our society - and more specifically TMan asks how the Asian/Afro Caribbean communities have.

James Berry

Fred D'Aguiar who won the T. S. Eliot Prize in 1994

Zadie Smith who won the Orange Prize for On Beauty In 2006

of course the most famous one - Farrokh Bulsara AKA Freddy Mercury.

Trevor MacDonald,

Moira Stuart

- OK they are individuals but then groups, however you want to label them are ultimately made up of individuals. That is what the BNP can't see, individuals commit crimes not races, individuals write wonderful literature not ethnic groups. There will be giants of industry, thieves, powerful orators, murderers, strong political figures, laggards, hard workers and lowlife in ANY ethnic or social group and to blame (or absolve) any group based on that single issue is a step toward pogroms and "final solution"s

[Tman]

Just for the sake of parity,in the same time period and because i like to play the Devil's Advocate as well, exactly how have the millions of indigenous peoples enriched Britain? Politicians often say it, but never choose to explain in depth..

You'll need to give an example of when a politician would feel the need to justify the presence of the indigenous population...I can't remember or even conceive of a situation where this would be necessary, let alone "often".
Just sentence-mangling for the sake of it, Fish.

[fishtank]

Just for the sake of parity,in the same time period and because i like to play the Devil's Advocate as well, exactly how have the millions of indigenous peoples enriched Britain? Politicians often say it, but never choose to explain in depth..

You'll need to give an example of when a politician would feel the need to justify the presence of the indigenous population...

Thanks,that kind of makes the point for me Tman.
Is their contribution beyond reproach?...because the're British.
You can sit on your arse and contribute nothing to society,sponge off the state,take drugs,mug old ladies,basically do as you please as long as you were born here because only the contribution of immigrants is to be judged.

If you can ask such a question of immigrants why can't you ask it of the indigenous population?
After all as has been pointed out,the vast majority of us aren't really indigenous anyway..we've just been here a little bit longer.

[Tman]

You can sit on your arse and contribute nothing to society,sponge off the state,take drugs,mug old ladies,basically do as you please as long as you were born here because only the contribution of immigrants is to be judged.

I couldn't agree more. We have more than enough of the "people" as you list above, but there's no link there to the rhetorical question of "how have immigrants enriched our society"?

That we too many of the indigenous population who are feckless wasters is an entirely seperate issue.

[fishtank]

but there's no link there to the rhetorical question of "how have immigrants enriched our society"?

"how have immigrants enriched our society"?
"how have the indigenous people enriched our society"?
There's no link....really?

Why has it suddenly become a rhetorical question?
It certainly wasn't positioned as such.
Cold feet Tman?

[Tman]

"how have immigrants enriched our society"?
"how have the indigenous people enriched our society"?
There's no link....really?

No, there's no link when you consider how the original question was posed.
It's just the same old Chav-style "ah yeah but" diversionary tactic you're employing....taking the argument off down an unintended route.
The indigenous population aren't a target (yet) of the BNP etc...but immigrants are.
So do you have any thoughts on the above question, or will this thread descend into the usual "you said I said" bollix?

[fishtank]

So do you have any thoughts on the above question,

Yes i have.
They've enriched Britain in much the same way as the indigenous population have,maybe slightly more because diversity of experience by it's very nature helps to educate.
The issue i have is why they are subject to your enrichment test in the first place,when nobody else is.
It wasn't the BNP who posed the question...it was you.

[RTP]

Parties like the BNP and the EDL have support in the UK. Some posties are going to be supporters of these parties. They are not the only people who are prejudiced but they want to make discrimination legal. There are a lot of hypocrites earning more money than their talent justifies who scream about the BNP but would scream even louder if fair assessment of their skills resulted in a more talented immigrant taking their job.

There is a legitimate grievance. Immigrants are being used to undercut wages because their insecurity and sense of gratefulness is being exploited. The UK business plan depends on using this cheap labour to fund a tier of bullshit management jobs. There is not equal opportunity of access to these bullshit jobs. Some people who follow the path of ignorance are being given these jobs while other, equally ignorant people, are being left in poverty.

As a rep I will represent anyone who has suffered an injustice. I don't care if they support the BNP, EDL or Al Quaida, it is not my business, although I might draw the line at Liberal Democrat supporters.

Then as a rep you should know that if the CWU find out a member is in the BNP, then they'll exclude that member from the union.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Parties like the BNP and the EDL have support in the UK. Some posties are going to be supporters of these parties. They are not the only people who are prejudiced but they want to make discrimination legal. There are a lot of hypocrites earning more money than their talent justifies who scream about the BNP but would scream even louder if fair assessment of their skills resulted in a more talented immigrant taking their job.

There is a legitimate grievance. Immigrants are being used to undercut wages because their insecurity and sense of gratefulness is being exploited. The UK business plan depends on using this cheap labour to fund a tier of bullshit management jobs. There is not equal opportunity of access to these bullshit jobs. Some people who follow the path of ignorance are being given these jobs while other, equally ignorant people, are being left in poverty.

As a rep I will represent anyone who has suffered an injustice. I don't care if they support the BNP, EDL or Al Quaida, it is not my business, although I might draw the line at Liberal Democrat supporters.

Then as a rep you should know that if the CWU find out a member is in the BNP, then they'll exclude that member from the union.

Yes they will exclude a member of the BNP, but not a supporter of them. There is a difference legally if not morally.

[andy2007]

You can sit on your arse and contribute nothing to society,sponge off the state,take drugs,mug old ladies,basically do as you please as long as you were born here because only the contribution of immigrants is to be judged.

I couldn't agree more. We have more than enough of the "people" as you list above, but there's no link there to the rhetorical question of "how have immigrants enriched our society"?

That we too many of the indigenous population who are feckless wasters is an entirely seperate issue.

Indigenous population?
What indigenous population?
If you go far enough back in our Family Trees, we ALL have foreign Ancestors. There aren't any indiginous people left in Britain. Or are you only talking about those who's Ancestors came here in the last century or so?
That's like the anti-immigration lot in America, blaming others for their troubles. When the real Americans are kept in "Reservations", and often treated as second class Citizens.

You REALLY haven't thought this argument through, have you?
Still, there'll always be guillable groups, who believe that ill informed, propoganda. From the IMHO intellectually challenged BNP leadership. Then go for it. Now that isn't aimed at you Tman. You've already said, you're just playing Devils Advocate. But it is aimed at the fools I encounter from time to time, who come round campaigning for the BNP, and sadly, even some of my Colleagues. Who argue 'till they're blue in the face, that all Britains ills, are down to foreigners coming over here. They REALLY need to look at their own ancestory.

[Straight4ward]

Indigenous population – define.

As said earlier these isles have a long history of people joining us from other countries. There isn’t a period in our recorded history when it’s been any different.

I’m from immigrant stock but then, frankly, who isn’t? My family can be traced back to the Normans and arrived in the eleventh century. Does that make me any less British than I feel?

Virtually every single family in Britain today would fail the indigenous test.

“How have immigrants enriched our society?” The question is bit like “how long is a piece of string?”

Are we talking about those that were born overseas and later took up British citizenship, those that are direct descendents of immigrant families or those that just took up residence in the UK(Abramovich, Mohamed Al-Fayed for example)

Off the top of my head - Hugh Walpole, Colin Cowdrey, Basil D’Oliveria, Sigmund Freud, Marks of Marks & Spencer, Disraeli, the Saatchis, Marconi - either born abroad or of immigrant stock and on and on the list could go.

Enriched our society? Of course they bloody have!

[clashcityrocker]

Mo Farah
Terry Butcher.

[Harry_Perkins]

does anyone think immigration has been good for britain or indeed any other country????

Over the centuries...yes it has been good, and has shaped Britain, but when politicians say "immigrants have enriched our society" you just know he's quoting the same old same old with one eye on those immigrants' votes.
So to play the Devil's Advocate, exactly how have the millions of Asian and Afro-Caribbean immigrants enriched Britain? Politicians often say it, but never choose to explain in depth...

Has made us less insular? Think of the attitudes to race and culture 30 years back. We've come a long way since then and I doubt that would have happened if we'd closed the doors. The BNP want us to be somewhere like the Falklands, where the natives are nicknamed the 'Bennies' after Benny from Crossroads. I think that says it all! It is hard to broaden your horizons unless you have something real to compare and contrast with. Japan, I suppose is the best example of a large scale very homogenic society that works reasonably well but they are very insular and inward looking. The few migrants that live in Japan, Koreans and Filipinos in particular, are treated appallingly. I don't see how this is to the benefit of Japan.

Bit surprised at how many on here go in for the very liberal pro-immigration arguments. Good for the economy? Well yes but the evidence is that nearly all the benefits have gone to the already very well off. Either in terms of cheap flexible labour or domestic help. So yes, contributed to growth but where are/were the benefits for the vast majority? If anything, the vast majority perceive the opposite is true and they are right. Immigration economically has been bad for the vast majority. I think there is also a lot of evidence that employers take this easy route rather than invest in training people here. In turn, this is damaging developing countries who put money into training these people only to see them leave. None of this is the migrants fault of course but why back up the pro-liberal view?

Do the jobs native Britons won't do? Really? So who does all the menial jobs in large areas of the country which have been untouched by immigration? The reality is, is that many migrants are commanding far higher wages here than they do in their home countries. The Poles a decade back were earning 3 or 4 times more. Now if British workers could go somewhere where they could earn, lets say, 60k a year, I think they'd be out in the farms and factories picking and packing like crazy, just like some of the migrants here do. It is a question of incentive.

I suspect a knee jerk anti-BNP reaction on this, a lot of the time. The BNP are obviously twats but don't let that be a reason to be suckered into echoing the sort of arguments that are made by plenty of Tories and New Labour types.