London Mail Centre Dispute : Resolution

[wandle]

Does the wording actually mean non CWU members could face compulsory redundancies?

The wording suggest they could

Would it not be easy for a non-CWU member to show at a tribunal that they had blantantly been discriminated against ?

Last time we had an official strike at my office, the CWU rep put up some posters showing the wording of legislation that gives non-union members who refuse to cross the picket-line (and support the strike) protection against being sacked. Employers would have to sack ALL those who took part in a strike, or sack NONE of them. To do anything else would be to discriminate against (of in favour of) one group ahead of the other.

So, I'd imagine that to make non-CWU members compulsorily redundant, and only non-CWU members, would be similarly illegal


PS POSTMAN - two threads with the same heading seem to be developing on the board. Can they be merged ??

[barbario]

In time,Royal Mail will still get to close all the London MC's that it orginally wanted,with the same surplus of staff.Erm......i think we still have problems.

[POSTMAN]

PS POSTMAN - two threads with the same heading seem to be developing on the board. Can they be merged ??

I copied the thread for our MC colleagues for their own part of the board.
Cheers.

[gb93]

What is the London Weighting & how long before savings are made by RM and losses by staff.

[Martin Walsh]

The London Dispute was never about protecting Bricks and Mortar. The union is not the natural trust where we protect buildings. The issue was complusory redundancies and complusory transfers. Now the agreement means that the both East London and Nine Elms mail centres can only close if Royal Mail meet the terms of the reviews detailed in 4.3 of the agreement. That mean that Royal Mail have to demonstrate that they are mantaining quality of service and have dealt with the surplus. This has mean they have had to delay their plan and the phaising for W2-14 inward , N1-22 inward and E1-18 inward all moves back from their orginal plan.

Now the union cant win judging by some of your comments. Of course it means that Royal Mail gives a total commitment first time ever that there will be no complusory redundnacies as a result of the London Mail centre joint statement. The key is in the title it means for London staff cause the plan relates to London. Now we suggust that if other mail centre reviews want a similar cause then they must take a strong line and argue this point. Including if needed a ballot.

Now in terms of the National Issues then of course the unions target is get something better on Job security. I can give your this assurance Fishtank if there is no progress on the national issues then London will support and deliver a yes vote for national strike action. Our record speaks for itself.

Now in terms of the improved MTSF terms for going to HWDC well Royal Mail knew they had a problem getting people to go to Langley. So we argued for improved terms especially as if you go from inner London to National Rate you go onto mark time where you do not get a pay rise until such time the national pay rates increase to the same as inner London is now. The current difference between national and inner London is £91 per week. Now that will take probably over 10 years reach. So we got an extra £2000 in addition to the current £7000. Any one who wishes now to transfer from London Mail centres can now get the £9000 up front in one payment. In addition to retaining their pbs bonus. The other significant advantage is that anyone who transfers to HWDC will get an extra £20 per week as they have the £20.87 supplement rather than the standard £8 mail centre supplement and all staff get £7.50 tpm money. On top of this HWDC have a bonus payment which is averaging £23 per week which staff will also get who transfer. These payments will be backdated to staff who have transfered to HWDC this year from London Mail Centres.

We believe that the agreement provides the safeguards we needed and whilst we are in no doubt there will be further bumps in the road we do believe the agreement is good and now offers other areas an opportunity to argue for the same.

[dvbuk55]

Beats me that a national union should have one law for the rich and another for the not so rich. If the agreement is just for London, then break away and fund your own campaigns, and stop whining for national support when all you are doing is feathering your own nest and then saying - go and get your own deal.....now don't tell me that London aren't treated differently because they are clearly favoured over the national organisation.

[barbario]

The London Dispute was never about protecting Bricks and Mortar. The union is not the natural trust where we protect buildings. The issue was complusory redundancies and complusory transfers. Now the agreement means that the both East London and Nine Elms mail centres can only close if Royal Mail meet the terms of the reviews detailed in 4.3 of the agreement. That mean that Royal Mail have to demonstrate that they are mantaining quality of service and have dealt with the surplus. This has mean they have had to delay their plan and the phaising for W2-14 inward , N1-22 inward and E1-18 inward all moves back from their orginal plan.

Now the union cant win judging by some of your comments. Of course it means that Royal Mail gives a total commitment first time ever that there will be no complusory redundnacies as a result of the London Mail centre joint statement. The key is in the title it means for London staff cause the plan relates to London. Now we suggust that if other mail centre reviews want a similar cause then they must take a strong line and argue this point. Including if needed a ballot.

Now in terms of the National Issues then of course the unions target is get something better on Job security. I can give your this assurance Fishtank if there is no progress on the national issues then London will support and deliver a yes vote for national strike action. Our record speaks for itself.

Now in terms of the improved MTSF terms for going to HWDC well Royal Mail knew they had a problem getting people to go to Langley. So we argued for improved terms especially as if you go from inner London to National Rate you go onto mark time where you do not get a pay rise until such time the national pay rates increase to the same as inner London is now. The current difference between national and inner London is £91 per week. Now that will take probably over 10 years reach. So we got an extra £2000 in addition to the current £7000. Any one who wishes now to transfer from London Mail centres can now get the £9000 up front in one payment. In addition to retaining their pbs bonus. The other significant advantage is that anyone who transfers to HWDC will get an extra £20 per week as they have the £20.87 supplement rather than the standard £8 mail centre supplement and all staff get £7.50 tpm money. On top of this HWDC have a bonus payment which is averaging £23 per week which staff will also get who transfer. These payments will be backdated to staff who have transfered to HWDC this year from London Mail Centres.

We believe that the agreement provides the safeguards we needed and whilst we are in no doubt there will be further bumps in the road we do believe the agreement is good and now offers other areas an opportunity to argue for the same.

Thanks for that Dingo. I was wondering,with the delayed transfer of inward w1-14, and North and East London mail.will the Mount,in the mean time, keep all internationl mail it has at the moment and would any international mail return to it ,its already lost to HWDC.

[Martin Walsh]

The union does not have a rich and a poor list. What we have is London Pay ranges which most other National companies have. We also have RRIS payments in parts of the country. I fail to see why you should have an issue with either of these payments.

Now in terms of asking other Branch`s to support us . We simply said that they should not handle unagreed diversions. This did not cause anyone any problems as there was no work moved as we got an agreement.

I do believe we got that agreement because we decided to ballot for strike action and we voted yes in all the ballots. That puts you in a strong postion. Other areas need to think about that where they have a problem.

Now another myth is that we get more help from CWU HQs because we are based in London. Simply untrue. The PEC and officers of the union have the general secretary and Senior DGS both from Liverpool. The president is from Liverpool. The DGSP is from London , The outdoor secretary is orginally from Leeds but move to Southend about 20 odd years ago, the acting indoor secretary is from Newcastle , two other officers from London , one from Dartford.

The PEC is made up of 3 people from Scotland , 1 from Northern Ireland , 1 from Manchester , 1 from the midlands , 1 from Romford , 1 from Peterborugh , 6 from London , 1 from Wales , 1 from Liverpool. Hardly dominated by London is it.

[suz67]

Beats me that a national union should have one law for the rich and another for the not so rich. If the agreement is just for London, then break away and fund your own campaigns, and stop whining for national support when all you are doing is feathering your own nest and then saying - go and get your own deal.....now don't tell me that London aren't treated differently because they are clearly favoured over the national organisation.

well said

[fishtank]

Fishtank if there is no progress on the national issues then London will support and deliver a yes vote for national strike action. Our record speaks for itself.

Any sniff of industrial action over national issues and Royal Mail will pull this agreement immediately.
The CWU knows that and Royal Mail knows that and even you know that dingo...
The deal is only on the table as long as the union is playing ball...

Now could any senior official go to the affected members and ask them to take industrial action that could lose them over £2000 and possibly reinstate the threat of compulsory redundancies or a forced transfer to an unsuitable job?
Of course they couldn't and that is no reflection on the members.

The deal covering the London Mail Centre Rationalisation is a very good deal,almost too good to be true.
Certainly too good to put at risk over colleagueshare money and screwed up revisions in other areas that for the most part haven't really affected those members.

You can make whatever promises you like dingo but the reality is a little different.

[dvbuk55]

Dingo, the truth of the matter is that London use HQ as their personal admin office and quite frankly to the detriment of the rest of the members. Get a grip - not dominated by London................6 from London, 3 from Scotland and 1 each from other areas...............now what proportion of members are based in London and what in the rest of the country? If it came to a vote they would need only 3 of the other 9 votes. I'm with the Lib Dems, let's have proportional representation. As for the "we've got our deal you go and get your own"

[Lincox]

Well Dingo, will the PEC never learn. All the while you keep agreeing locally, the Royal Mail will have you by the b.lls. A union should be about collective agreements and not selective agreements.

[wandle]

The current difference between national and inner London is £91 per week

I know housing costs in London are expensive, but that's increasingly true of almost any major City in Britain in 2011.
I hate to say it Dingo, but as a defence against the charge that London CWU members are not treated better than those outside, that's one almighty own-goal. £91/week extra for members who, by your own admission, tend to live in the London suburbs (and not actually IN central London) is only going to strengthen the perception of a two-tier union.

Ah, but London members have travel-to-work costs. What, and CWU members in Glasgow, Manchester, Leeds, Bristol, in fact almost ANYWHERE in the country don't ??? Petrol is expensive everywhere. Food is expensive everywhere too.

I used to understand that, as a union, we should not be bickering among ourselves and 'an attack on one, is an attack on all'. But if tell my colleagues tomorrow that delivering letters on the streets of London pays £4732 a year more than delivering letters on the streets in Nowhereville, do you seriously expect them to think the CWU is not biased towards London members


I ain't going to tell them. I'd be lynched

[gb93]

Have I got this right.
If you transfer from inner London to outer London you get £9000 lump sump.
Plus you get to keep your london weighting but get no pay rises until everyone else's pay catches up

[Martin Walsh]

No GB if you transfer from inner London to HWDC you get the £9000 and you keep your inner London weighting on a mark time basis. If an indivdual transfers from inner London to outer London weighting they will get £3200 lump sum which can be paid in one go and they will retain their inner London pay rate until outer London reaches the same pay rate as inner.

Fishtank the agreement will not be pulled by Royal Mail if there is a national dispute as Royal Mail know they can only deliver the plan with this agreement.

My own view is that we are miles away from a national dispute in any case. Lets see how the talks progress.

Now in terms of London Weighting , every independent report on cost of living indicates everything from child care , dentist , or hairdressing that London is the most expensive city in Britain. Yes your right a lot of postal workers have been priced out of living near where they work and have significant journey times and cost to travel to and from work.

Now there others areas who get RRIS payments for example HWDC get £27 per week. RRIS and London Weighting is what saved national pay bargining. Back in 1987/88 Royal Mail were having differculty in reataining and recuriting staff in the South East. They appoached the Union and stated that want to introduce regional pay bargining and would have put money into the South East rather than the rest of the UK. The union included London and the South East opposed this and we went out on indefinative strike action most of the UK were out for two weeks but London , Liverpool and Covertry were out for 3 weeks.

The settlement kept national pay bargining and introduce RRIS payments. Inner London got £13.87 per week and outer London got £16.31. Places like Reading got more etc. The inner and outer London weighting RRIS got consolidated into basic pensionable pay as part of the 2003 London weighting strike.