Big call for the Postal Executive

[Martin Walsh]

The Hawks are indivduals like Cameron , Tolhurst and some of the regional operational managers . The Doves and yes there are a few are in the miniority. Where Moya and John Duncan sit remains to be seen , they surprised a lot of us by resolving the Post Office Counters dispute. However the problem they have is that they have little knowledge of the Uk postal operation and therefore have to turned to advice on operationals to yes you guessed it the Hawks.

[fishtank]

I don't believe in hawks and doves dingo.

If Mr Higson and Ms Greene didn't like the way Mr Cameron and Mr Tolhurst were operating a five minute meeting is all it would take to resolve that issue.
The CWU is being played by the classic good cop/bad cop strategy but the bottom line is....it is a Royal Mail stategy,Cameron and Tolhurst are doing exactly what they are told to do....as are the regional managers.If the CWU is somehow hoping that a friendlier,more benevolent senior management structure is somehow waiting in the wings ready to take their opportunity then they are sadly wasting all of our time.
There are no doves or hawks in Royal Mail....this agreement has shown that....only vultures.

[clashcityrocker]

I agree with you FT.
So how do we conclude any agreement with these vultures?
And if we walk away from BTA 2010 - what then?

[pickaname]

The rank and file of the union need to be involved every single step of the way if new negotiations are to go ahead.........and I do mean rank and file.....not branch lead cohorts who have in the past seen to be less concerned about the shop floor and more concerned with their own agenda. That is what lead to this last disaster.

No secret meetings, no "localised" special treatment, no side issues involving the national organisation of the CWU but an open, honest and frank discussion on what any agreement involves IN DETAIL, not some nebulously worded agreement which really hadn't had the i's dotted and the t's crossed before the ballot on the agreement AND a free vote with all the information at hand................lets not take 6 months about it this time. Clearly set out the agenda and stick to it.

hear hear...

The last negotiations took place in secret with no info to members.

There was talk of deal of the century and we all ended up getting shafted.

No more secret negotiations.

[hertsman0]

Dingo IM just looking at the latest issue of the courier and on the front page Mark Higson states "we are 100% commited to the agreement " It also says " to jointly ensure all aspects oour aim remains to work closely with the CWU to jointly ensure all aspects of the agreement are being deployed as they should be,and at the pace we have agreed"
Has there been a change since this went to print? The CWU should not walk away from the agreement as that would play into the Royal Mails hands.

[fishtank]

I agree with you FT.
So how do we conclude any agreement with these vultures?
And if we walk away from BTA 2010 - what then?

It's not really a matter of walking away from BTA,that agreement in itself is now obsolete,although the bones of it could and probably will form the spine of any new agreement that will have to be made to see us through the new business plan.
I'm afraid that we have no real choice but to deal with the vultures but we should at least see them for what they are,not make any pretences at a "new relationship" and keep any future agreements as clear,concise and free from ambiguity as possible.

[clashcityrocker]

I'm afraid that we have no real choice but to deal with the vultures but we should at least see them for what they are,not make any pretences at a "new relationship" and keep any future agreements as clear,concise and free from ambiguity as possible.

The current agreement is quite clear that IWT is the correct tool to use (for better or worse) yet we are still being told "it is being validated" and Capacity Plan is the only show in town.

[hubbahubba]

I agree with you FT.
So how do we conclude any agreement with these vultures?
And if we walk away from BTA 2010 - what then?

Why not ask those US navy seals to drop in at RM HQ on the way back from Pakistan............?

[fishtank]

The current agreement is quite clear that IWT is the correct tool to use (for better or worse) yet we are still being told "it is being validated" and Capacity Plan is the only show in town.

It's not an issue that HQ are unaware of, just like the unagreed testing of members using throughput figures and the side-lining of the use of trolleys.
Make of that what you will...

[Martin Walsh]

Fishtank I am not going to get into a debate with you regarding hawks and doves , I have a view as I meet with some of these people and expressed it but it is ilrelevant in the scheme of things as the HAWKs are in control and have been for some time apart from when the agreement was agreed.

Now in terms of what Mark Higson said in the courier of what they said at the Excel building when all the managers were there. The fact is that their whole business plan which Mark along with others dreamt up and thought would change the business fortunes and led to the 2009 dispute is not working. In fact they have agreed with the government a new plan which accelerates their closure plan and introduces new plans for delivery revisons and closures. This is not covered by the BTA agreement.

So there is little doubt if the union did walk away from the BTA certain management will be happy as they then dont get called to account for not achieving their business plan and can still blame the CWU. However equally the CWU needs to consider that the BTA delivery revisons ie the intregrated revsions have not been introduced succussfilly and a lot of our members are not very happy with that part of the agreement.

[clashcityrocker]

In fact they have agreed with the government a new plan which accelerates their closure plan and introduces new plans for delivery revisons and closures. This is not covered by the BTA agreement.

So what is the new plan?

[hans solo]

if you meet these people then i would say to have access to them you would in turn be one of them
and another thing its not a big call for the executive but for us we employ executive maybe they forget that its what we want not to be told what to do people forget we still hold the power always have just the minnions dont realise but maybe just maybe with all the unrest round the world rm gvmt and cwu might just get a fright
we will put out request or mandate for ia not postal executive they can then show their true colours whether to support us or not.
as i said before they ratified this non-agreement they should fall on their sword

[dvbuk55]

Fishtank I am not going to get into a debate with you regarding hawks and doves , I have a view as I meet with some of these people and expressed it but it is ilrelevant in the scheme of things as the HAWKs are in control and have been for some time apart from when the agreement was agreed.

and a lot of our members are not very happy with that part of the agreement.

There are two things about this post that are glaringly ridiculous and I have highlighted them............

The Doves according this statement were in charge at the time of the agreement???????????????? Now suddenly the Hawks are in charge when it goes tits up making the CWU negotiators faultless in the negotiations presumably. I think it was more a question of them being duped by the good cops whilst the bad cops, to use fts analogy were merely waiting in the wings.................it may sound like the screenplay for a B Movie but it most certainly isn't irrelevant because this IS the scheme of things.

As for the delivery element not being happy with the agreement....................now that is the understatement of the century.

[fishtank]

Fishtank I am not going to get into a debate with you regarding hawks and doves , I have a view as I meet with some of these people and expressed it but it is ilrelevant in the scheme of things as the HAWKs are in control and have been for some time apart from when the agreement was agreed.

It's perfectly relevant if the word "trust" is ever wheeled out again dingo,which obviously once the dust settles it will have to be.
It is fundamental to any approach to negotiations that you are fully aware of what you are dealing with.
I don't believe that HQ are or ever have been,their apparent naivety when negotiating the BTA is quite frankly shocking....if anyone enters this crucial period believing that those across the table are anything other than duplicitous,underhand and self-serving then they are delusional and dangerous to the cause.
This is not a game for bleeding hearts...there is too much at stake for that.

[Martin Walsh]

Hans I meet some of these in negotiatons etc so it certainly does not mean I in with them.

Now Dvbuk in terms of members being unhappy with the delivery part of the agreement it will depend on whether you have introduced delivery methods and the intregrated revisons. Only 120 offices have thus far , only 700 have introduced a revison which is less than half. So it will depend on your own experience.

What I said is that the majority of those who have had the intregrated revsions or delivery methods have felt that Royal Mail`s delivery best pratiicse policy does not work.

The Hawks did not want an interim solution and did not want the involvement of the union in the new agreement. But hey thats my opinion based on my expereience and off course you have yours. History now thou and whether your right or I am right wont change what we are now facing now.