GROSS MISCONDUCT...THIS WILL AFFECT ANYONE READ THIS!

[meercat]

I've no interest in asking a lawyer the diff between civil and criminal law thanks. I would imagine he would say something like civil laws are enforced by fines and restrictions not detention and you can't be arrested for a civil offense etc etc. He'd then charge me 200quid for the consultation - now that's criminal.

And where is your good advice for this girl? At least I am trying to help you aren't. Nuff said. Yeah whatever.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

I've no interest in asking a lawyer the diff between civil and criminal law thanks. I would imagine he would say something like civil laws are enforced by fines and restrictions not detention and you can't be arrested for a civil offense etc etc. He'd then charge me 200quid for the consultation - now that's criminal.

And where is your good advice for this girl? At least I am trying to help you aren't. Nuff said. Yeah whatever.

Yes he is trying to help. If fishtank is right and your wrong and the OP follows your advice then they are wasting their time and they will loose the case as their focus is wrong and they will be trying to prove innocence when the ET wont be interested.
If your right and fishtank is wrong then there is no danger as far as I can see as they will prove the OP innocent of the alleged incident, and with FT input they will also prove it was unfair and unreasonable to dismiss.

I also would like to tackle the belief that "Beyond reasonable doubt" and "reasonable assumption of guilt" are essentially the same thing - they are not.

Beyond reasonable doubt - means that the accusers (Police, customer RM etc) have the burden of proof and would need a strong case to proceed.

Reasonable Assumption of guilt - means that both sides have a burden of proof and that a decision is made on a balance of the evidence provided - in other words the evidence levels required by the accuser is less than that needed in the Beyond Reasonable Doubt scenario.

[coxie]

if royal mail are never going to believe us when we have signatures then why do we even have that system in place. What's the point in getting signatures for anything, we might as well just hand it all over.

[IloveMYredTROLLEY!]

Unless there is more to this incident than can be revealed before the tribunal, it very much sounds as though Royal Mail should be operating in a similar manner to some countries such as Norway regarding "specials." Over there, the packet is not taken to the customer but a simple card is posted through the letterbox to say they need to attend the depot with suffucient ID to proove they are the recipient. With the caller's office being videoed, there is all the proof needed.

On the face of it, this case has a massive bearing on the most pressured aspect of our day to day jobs. Very worrying...

[kidserge]

Thank you everyone for your comment. Whether your advice is right or wrong I feel a lot better all of you are supporting the PO I am helping out here. The case is simple. PO delivers specials to customer. Customer said they did not received it. Customer's signatures were obtained in the card. PO's car and house was searched bearing in mind this was done voluntariry because PO thought that this will help the RM to investigate. PO provided sample signatures. RM said signatures and customer's signature looks the same so PO must have stolen the goods. Graphologist said the signatures look different. RM said it is reasonable to believe that they are same and as long as it is reasonable, graphologist's opinion does not matter. RM said there are no other possibilities other than PO stolen it, delivered to someone else, stolen in car, delivered to someone on street. All are "reasonable" beliefs. No way apart from a CCTV shows that PO has delivered it can it be proven that the PO is innocent. PO is guilty until I can prove PO is innocent. PO worked for 10 years with an unblemish record.

There is another outrageous claim from RM which is totally absurd, but I will not publish it here until the ET has made the decision. At the moment, PO is very depressed and I have personally paid £95 for half an hour consultation with a solicitor and all they can tell me in that half an hour is how much they are gonna charge me to proceed which could be thousands of pounds. Union solicitor is still assessing whether to help and in the meantime, I am stuck with helping PO with the legal paperworks all by myself and I hope I get it right. I contacted Union solicitor for help and they say they cannot. PO can't get job as PO has a record of stealing.

In my opinion, this is a story worthy for Wikileaks to publish and for the national newspaper to get their hands on. If we do not get the appropriate judgement from ET, it is a mockery of democracy....and truly this will be the hypocrisy of democracy.

[meercat]

So the only 'evidence' is that the signatures apparently look the same and the customer says they didn't get item? I'd say you would need more to say you can 'reasonably assume guilt' of postal worker.

You have a strong case - evidence of graphologist, willingness to agree to search of home, search of car. If anything 'goes missing' according to a customer could you say it is 'reasonable' to assume the postman stole it in EVERY case? That is what you should ask in tribunal.

What about members of the public? Don't they ever steal and lie? Isn't it 'reasonable' to assume the customer could also be lieing and stole the item? I'd say yes definately.

So only the signature is the key bit of evidence and if you can prove it is unlikely to be workers then NO reasonable assumption of guilt is possible. Good luck but I don't think you need it. So long as you present your case clearly and honestly the ET will find against RM.

[La Poste]

I'll throw my tuppence in here.
I was sacked by Royal mail and won my job back so I know what it feels like.
At an ET the only thing they will be looking at is:
1. Did the employer have a reasonable belief the offence took place ( this belief being formed after a fair investigation)?
2. Did the punishment of dismissal fall into a band of reasonable responses available to the employer?

So basically if the employer had a reasonable belief then dismissal is a very reasonable outcome.
I would focus on number 1, did the employer have reasonable belief the offence took place and was a fair investigation carried out?
The only advice I can really offer is to join which legal services (they saved me), it costs around £85 a year and you can write as many letters to a qualified solicitor as you like.
That could be for example over one hundred letters for the price of a half hour consultation with a high street solicitor, money well spent if you ask me, I belief this went a long way to saving my job.
So save all your evidence and join which online and discuss it with them.
The union takes ages to act, I mean ages. I won my job back, sent a letter to branch and spoke to them on the phone and was still receiving letters months later asking when my ET date was. I really don't want to run the union down because individually reps really helped me an awful lot, they were really good but as far as representation at an ET goes they are really snowed under and they will only take a case on when there is more than a 50% chance of winning. You have to help yourself.
ET's have a funny way of dealing with stuff that will take a bit of time to understand but as I say the crux of the issue is did the employer have reasonable belief the offence took place and was a fair investigation carried out to arrive at that belief?
And one more thing, a lot will depend on letter writing skills now, a lot of written correspondance, best get used to it.
Good luck.

[gb93]

Excellent Post, La Poste.
Good factual & informative advice.

[MinisterofCucumber]

The graphologist's report should provide details of differences in the shaping of letters. Management might try to argue that only a trained expert could reasonably assess that the signatures were different.

This highlights the proof of delivery problem and why we need to increase our network of collection points by opening more post offices and delivery offices instead of closing them down.

Kidserge, you need to get your local MP involved.

[kidserge]

I have not update this forum for a long time so I thought I gave everyone an update. Union does not want to get involved. They said that as long as the manager thinks that she is guilty then that is "reasonable". As I am typing, I need to restrain myself from saying anything nasty about the Union.....like why is she paying so much for the Union almost for nothing?

Second, again bringing back to the first point, RM claims that the graphologist's opinion is not important. The only opinion that is important is his opinion.

I heard someone mentioned that the graphologist needs more detail analysis of the handwriting. Let me tell you this, she rang me up and said that she does not need analysis to tell that they are different. Frankly I agree with her. When the court case is over, I will submit the handwriting samples online for everyone to see.

They also made some "reasonable assumption" that she could have get someone else to sign it and in effect steal the package, hand it to someone on the street to sign it, stolen while left in car, got it signed to someone on the garden or misdelivered it. Hey, I can also say that I am the king of England....where is the proof? When asked a legal advisor from Union, they claim they do not need to proof to accuse someone.

Third, she got accused of hiding facts from the investigators when they interrogated her. The fact that she does not remember anything seems suspicious as it is a Special Delivery. Please bear in mind the IB (Internal Bureau of Royal Mail) asked her about the incident in the end of April 2010. The incident itself happens in January 2010. They claimed that if it is them, they will definitely remember because it is a Special Delivery. Dear all postmen and postwomen in this forum. Do you remember what special delivery you have delivered last month never mind three months ago?

[kidserge]

Also, the MP is not interested and they asked me to get a lawyer. I might have mentioned this before, I have paid £100 for a half an hour chat with the lawyer. All he told me is how much he is gonna charge me in the future, and that he needs 4-5 hours to review the case. That's not even includes going to the court etc.

The IB (Investigation Bureau) has been rude to me on the day they interrogated her. I asked them how long the interrogation is going to take and he said "How long is a piece of string". I told them this lady cannot speak English properly and they told me then they will offer to get her a translator (which they did not) and that would means they need to get the police involved and he said I don't want that (I do want the police involve but this is a civil matter!!!). When she comes out, I was talking to her in non-English and the IB said we must talk in English. When I asked her colleague who accompany her during the interview unrecorded, the IB rudely hijack the conversation and said I am being very hostile. The colleague is her best mate so I DO NOT get hostile towards her! They rudely jumped into the conversation. And how do I remember all this ladies and gentlemen after all these months? Because I recorded the whole conversation without them knowing and I WILL upload the conversation so you guys can decide for yourself if the IB is rude. I use facts and evidence not supposition unlike them.

When they search the house, bearing in mind this is 3 men searching a woman's room, they ask her "what's in the wardrobe" and her response is clothes. Then he asked "Why are there so many boxes and what's inside them?". Is it criminal to have boxes of shoes in a wardrobe? One of them search her draw that is full of underwears. This is extremely humiliating and even her colleague shed tears cause she could not bear watching the whole thing.

Then the other thing is that, again referring to the signature sample, that it is strange that she spelt the name wrong just like the signature on the signature card. Her colleague was present in the interview and she confirms that the IB has spelt it wrong and now IB denied that they spelt anything wrong. This was done on unrecorded interview. How convenient.

[G Bolster]

Have you checked any insurance policies she might possess? Quite often household contents and / or car insurance includes legal expenses cover. I can vouch for this as I was taken to court by a rip-off plumber and my contents insurance covered the £25k expenses.

[emmaa_uk]

Recently, a post officer has been dismissed of gross misconduct because customer has claimed that the special delivery (SD) packages have been lost. I am currently fighting the case and go into ET (appeal manager uphold the dismissal). This post officer has obtained the signatures from customer and they have got the signature card. Now this post officer has been accussed of stealing the package. I just want to warn everyone with regards to this as it could happen to any post delivery officer. I will provide a full detail as soon as ET has hear it and as soon as I get the all clear from my relevant legal advisors but suffice to say this is totally ridiculous.

Does anyone has any experience of this? What if you have delivered the SDs to the customers and they claim they have not received it?

I once lost a special and wasnt till after I was told it was a sackable offence- still have a job though. I am just alot more careful now

[kidserge]

Hi everyone just an update on the news. I have went to the Employment Tribunal (ET) with the post delivery officer. We have presented all our evidences. The judge has decided that they cannot rule on our favour. She said that she is impressed by the overwhelming evidence that we have provided and she belives that the postlady did not steal nor did she misdelivered the special deliveries. However, Royal Mail has acted lawfully and with the correct procedures and they are right that they don't need evidence to accuse someone of stealing. This is an injustice and clearly demonstrate how hyprocitic our "democratic society" is. Her manager and appeal manager was there and the way they point their finger at us and laugh at us outside the court made my blood really boil. The Union doesn't even want to know about this lady (she has joined them for 8 years how much has that cost her?). This forum, although is called "Union Room" has not representatives that is willing to offer proper advise. She is a scapegoat and now she could not longer find another job because of "stealing" in her record. However, not all is lost. Someone has offered her substantial amount of money for all the information (the bundle pack produced for ET). i think we all know what that person wants to do with that piece of info. The scam is easy, get someone to hack into your account, order cash delivered to your door, get that person in your house and sign for it, get that person to leg it with the money (split with you of course), you claim you did not received it even though signature is present, Royal Mail refund the money back to you and repeat. Result: Postman/lady get fired because they get accused by their Internal Bureau. Scammers 1 Innocent people 0. I really did not want to sell the info, but we have exhausted all choices and at least she has now got a lump sum to retire on. My advise to you? Don't join the Union. They are useless. If IB questions you about missing items, say you can't remember a thing (even if you can) or get a lawyer there.

[stokes11eg]

Hi everyone just an update on the news. I have went to the Employment Tribunal (ET) with the post delivery officer. We have presented all our evidences. The judge has decided that they cannot rule on our favour. She said that she is impressed by the overwhelming evidence that we have provided and she belives that the postlady did not steal nor did she misdelivered the special deliveries. However, Royal Mail has acted lawfully and with the correct procedures and they are right that they don't need evidence to accuse someone of stealing. This is an injustice and clearly demonstrate how hyprocitic our "democratic society" is. Her manager and appeal manager was there and the way they point their finger at us and laugh at us outside the court made my blood really boil. The Union doesn't even want to know about this lady (she has joined them for 8 years how much has that cost her?). This forum, although is called "Union Room" has not representatives that is willing to offer proper advise. She is a scapegoat and now she could not longer find another job because of "stealing" in her record. However, not all is lost. Someone has offered her substantial amount of money for all the information (the bundle pack produced for ET). i think we all know what that person wants to do with that piece of info. The scam is easy, get someone to hack into your account, order cash delivered to your door, get that person in your house and sign for it, get that person to leg it with the money (split with you of course), you claim you did not received it even though signature is present, Royal Mail refund the money back to you and repeat. Result: Postman/lady get fired because they get accused by their Internal Bureau. Scammers 1 Innocent people 0. I really did not want to sell the info, but we have exhausted all choices and at least she has now got a lump sum to retire on. My advise to you? Don't join the Union. They are useless. If IB questions you about missing items, say you can't remember a thing (even if you can) or get a lawyer there.

Eh? What is all this about someone offering her money? Think you should edit this post very carefully mate,--this lady could find herself in big trouble!