Holiday entitlement based on average hours??

[hantsman]

For some reason I picked postghosts question up on an old post. Totally agree that this leave system sucks. Never mind the letter of the law, this contracted leave business is bloody immoral! We've got PT Posties working 40 plus hrs a week for years in some cases, yet come leave they can't put their feet up and relax as they know their losing money.

I agree up to a point but what would you say to someone who regularly does 60-70hrs a week?
Are they or should they be entitled to 60-70hrs holiday pay?[/quot

yes you wont get more leave if your already full time, however thats not what we are debating!

[fishtank]

For some reason I picked postghosts question up on an old post. Totally agree that this leave system sucks. Never mind the letter of the law, this contracted leave business is bloody immoral! We've got PT Posties working 40 plus hrs a week for years in some cases, yet come leave they can't put their feet up and relax as they know their losing money.

I agree up to a point but what would you say to someone who regularly does 60-70hrs a week?
Are they or should they be entitled to 60-70hrs holiday pay?

yes you wont get more leave if your already full time, however thats not what we are debating!

The title of the thread is Holiday entitlement based on average hours??
It's exactly what you are debating!
If it's based on average hours rather than contracted hours then this must apply to everyone...full-time or part-time or the whole basis of your argument is unlawful and therefore flawed.

[norbert]

whitemoor66 successfully argued that his 1hr contract was a farce as there is no way that he could do the job in 1hr.
So he showed that in reality he didn't have a reasonable contract and that the average hours he worked must represent his contract.
It would be much more difficult to show that with a 25hr or 30hr contract.

Agree mostly, but the principle remains the same though, the 12 hour average week was brought in for a reason, IMHO to stop this.

the interesting bit was what is normally worked ....The Judge said the RM contract was a barely coherent mess of contradictions ....no surprise there ....everything is purely to impress more senior managers ....RM have always regarded themselves as above the law , at best they operate on the very edge , add some perverse intrepretations from Senior Managers and you've got problems ....especially with a very regimented , traditionally autocratic , top down style of " management " .

RM has the same problems , politics and issues as most firms ....only taken to literal extremes and shock horror ....handled badly .

[Dorset Plodder]

Interesting idea FT If someones Regularly working 60-70 hrs a week then perhaps he should get the same hours when he's on holiday. He's been doing the work after all. I expect a few of his office colleagues might have something to say about it though. Perhaps the DIM would then have to Regulate his overtime and share it about a bit?
As Hantsman said though, this is mainly concerned with Part-Timers getting a fair deal on Holiday pay. We know RM like to keep the present system, because it saves them a packet but we're not going to be able to challenge this system unless there's a National Statement of some sort. That's not going to come from Management so I suppose that leaves the Union.

[hantsman]

Interesting idea FT If someones Regularly working 60-70 hrs a week then perhaps he should get the same hours when he's on holiday. He's been doing the work after all. I expect a few of his office colleagues might have something to say about it though. Perhaps the DIM would then have to Regulate his overtime and share it about a bit?
As Hantsman said though, this is mainly concerned with Part-Timers getting a fair deal on Holiday pay. We know RM like to keep the present system, because it saves them a packet but we're not going to be able to challenge this system unless there's a National Statement of some sort. That's not going to come from Management so I suppose that leaves the Union.

If not the union then a employment tribunal will suffice. (will have to be a brave person if still employed by RM)

[Dorset Plodder]

I always thought the ideal person to do this would be someone leaving the job. I've know several guys leave because they've had enough and basically just "Cracked". And I don't mean new guys, some were old-timers looking to slow down and suddenly they're expected to go faster carrying more!
Trouble is they've got out and just can't be bothered with the hassle, don't say I blame them. Pity though, I agree with you Hantsman an IT would certainly make them sit up and take notice. Wonder if they can't do a "Test Case" like in the Films? Or is that just in Hollywood?

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Calculating holiday entitlement http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/ ... G_10034642" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Basic calculation

For a basic calculation of your leave allowance multiply the number of days you work a week by 5.6. For example, if you work a five day week you would be entitled to 28 days' annual leave a year:

5 days x 5.6 weeks = 28 days

You may find it helpful to use the statutory holiday entitlement calculator on the Business Link website. It allows you to calculate statutory holiday entitlement for full or part years based on the set days or hours you work.

* Calculate your holiday entitlement using Business Link's calculator Opens new window http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/ac ... 926&r.s=tl" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bank and public holidays can be included in your minimum 5.6 weeks' holiday entitlement.

Casual or irregular working patterns

If you work casually or irregular hours it may well be easiest to calculate the holiday entitlement that accrues (accumulates) as hours are worked. The holiday entitlement of 5.6 weeks is equivalent to 12.07 per cent of the hours you worked. The 12.07 per cent figure is:

5.6 weeks' holiday, divided by 46.4 weeks (being 52 weeks - 5.6 weeks) multiplied by 100 = 12.07 per cent

The 5.6 weeks have to be excluded from the calculation as you would not be present during the 5.6 weeks in order to accrue annual leave. For example, if you had worked 10 hours, you would be entitled to 72.6 minutes' paid holiday:

12.07 per cent x 10 hours = 1.21 hours = 72.6 minutes

The holiday entitlement is just over seven minutes for each hour worked.
Shift workers

If you are a shift worker your leave is calculated by using an average of your shifts over a 12 week period.

For example, if you always work four 12 hour shifts, followed by four days off (the ‘continental’ shift pattern) then the average working week is three-and-a-half 12 hour shifts. You would be entitled to 19.6 shifts of 12 hours as annual leave a year:

5.6 weeks x 3.5 shifts = 19.6 12 hour shifts

For other shift patterns, it may be easiest to calculate according to the established pattern of repeat.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/ ... G_10028439" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Overtime and payment for time off

Overtime isn't usually taken into account when working out holiday pay or paid maternity, paternity or adoption leave. However, it is taken into account when the overtime is guaranteed and you have to work the overtime as part of your contract of employment.

[Dorset Plodder]

Thanks for the info. Think RM could probably wriggle out of paying PTers, for average hours worked, using the, "Overtime isn't usually taken into account when working out holiday pay..." angle. Although they don't pay it as Overtime until you've done 40 hours. Sneaky Buggers aren't they? Some you lose and some you lose!