Simple Question Deal or no Deal

[Lincox]

Dingo, the abject failure of Royal Mail, CWU at both executive and local level, and the overseeing authorities from ACAS etc to provide the information, the support and back up, and the bare faced lies in saying that implementations would not be affected by budget necessities, makes this a huge NO DEAL

[Martin Walsh]

Well I want to thank all the posters who decided to comment on this thread you sure did not disappoint .

DGP yes the job is harder than it was 10 years ago , and it is harder than it was 5 years ago but equally pay has improved as well and terms and conditions. Prior to the Way Forward most postmen were earning just over £10 000 per year working a 6 day week , will less leave relying on things like maunday thursday , the Queens Birthday etc.

As a result of the unions strategy to improve basic pay rather than over time a postmans basic pay is now a reasonable wage ( we off course want more ) but no one can argue that basic pay over the last 10 years has increased at a faster rate than it did in either the 90s or 80s or the 70s. Equally the 5 day week got agreed stopping delivery postmen/women having to work 6 days per week.

Now I was out with some builders , cab drivers , Doctor , sercuritry guards , a couple of nurses , as well as some ex soldiers and print workers and even a couple of postmen and retired postmen , now yes the job is harder but lets put things into prespective your hardly in a workhouse and if you have agreed 5 hour park and loop why have you done that if you think it is too stressful as the agreement talks about fratigue and stress. I can understand if you believe that this is the only way you can safeguard jobs but a 5 hour park and loop will have to be adjusted in terms of dead time , ie attendance drops both succussful and unsucussful , traffic , welfare stops and dead time walking to and from the van etc.

[Martin Walsh]

Now lets examine some of the points TBT has mentioned and Fishtank , for the record I dont just blames local reps or members for issues. However as this site seems to be solely blaming CWU Headquaters for their revisons , I asked a legitmate question which was why did they allow the revison to come in.

In my expericence I would never go into an office and try to sell the office something which I knew they were against , I might tell them a few home truths but the agreement would be based on what their local rep/ committee or the members which are at the meeting want.

Now again I can only speak about the area I am from but we are using the IR Framework and no office is being pressured to introduce an agreement by the CWU and we have some agreements and some due disagreements.

Now in terms of option b , please I know a lot has been written on this , but if Dave Ward had come out and said during the strike what plan b would be , do you think that people would have wanted to know about plan a , of course not because no agreement for most is better than an agreement , as one introduces change and one delays change.

For example when the union got a national no vote for strike action something not expected we had a plan b within a couple of days and then as a result of some official and unofficial action got the pay and major change agreement which introduced the £26.28 pay rise and the 5 day week agreement. The union did not mention plan b during the lead up to the ballot but still got an agreement.

[dvbuk55]

Bet we could name a few whose workload hasn't increased in the last 5 years..............just like this last agreement. Pensions? Anyone got any theories? Wonder if there were any teachers out with dingo............................just a thought!

[Lincox]

I dont know where you are getting your figures from Dingo. I am not saying you are wrong as I have only been with RM for 5-6 years, but I do know that the Financial Institution that I worked fror previously set up many mortgages for postmen and women in the late 80 and through the nineties, particularly Right to Buys and we were receiving payslips then showing average gross earnings of £15k and up to £20k with overtime. There were a lot more extras shown on the payslips in them days, but as these were as good as guaranteed we were able to take them into account. Perhaps some that were working with Royal Mail previously could enlighten us as to the real truth regarding whether wages have increased significantly or not.

[fishtank]

Lincox basic pay has increased a great deal...but earning opportunities have decreased so although increasing on paper...in real terms set against inflation take home pay has decreased.

Why are you now moving the debate onto basic pay though dingo....is it safer ground?
This deal has nothing to do with basic pay,basic pay has hardly moved in 3 years,most of the gains in basic pay were made between 5 and 15 years ago and the only reasonable basic pay rise with this deal is in 2012 with more strings than Pinocchio..and probably subject to the whims of a private employer.

The problem dingo with you "speaking from experience"..is that it is not the same experience that a lot of the members in other areas are....experiencing.
I understand that this is not your fault but then neither is it ours.

[Martin Walsh]

In addition some have suggusted well let the revison come in and review it under the PIR , well I think that is a cop out either you as a local rep believe the revison is going to work and is worthy of recommending to your members or not. When I was a local rep I knew if the revison was going to be a failure or not or whether the deal was a good deal or not. If I thought it was not right I would go and explain that to the members and in most cases they would back me and we would say we not having it.

If that meant we had to go through the IR framework so be it or have an agruement with the area rep then so be it. The important issue is the revison right for the office , members and customers.

Now this union has never introduced a standard national agreement which meant that every office had to have the same duty pattern , same start time , same overtime levels , same finish time , same saturday finishing time , same level of part timers , same van duties , same delivery span etc. Instead the national agreement provides a framework for delivery offices to use which means it caters for their unique office requirements and members wishes.

Now I will accept that the union needs to support local reps in a better way than some do , in terms of training , but most branch`s should provide support and and Divisional Reps should also provide support. I think there are weakers Branch`s and that is something which needs stopping.

However whether you accept it or not , there is also a certain proportion of blame to some members and reps , It is no good posting comments on sites like this on how bad the agreement is when their not actually not forcing Royal Mail to apply the terms of the agreement. We might as well not have an agreement if some offices are simply allowing Royal Mail to introduce everything they always wanted too. I know some divisions and Branch`s are making sure that Royal Mail have to follow the agreement and phase 4 is about reaching an agreement. That means you ensure your happy with the duty set , attandance patterns, delivery span , park and loop bursts , earnings , mix of staffing etc. If you are then you do not agreement the revison and you take it through the framework.

[Martin Walsh]

I dont know where you are getting your figures from Dingo. I am not saying you are wrong as I have only been with RM for 5-6 years, but I do know that the Financial Institution that I worked fror previously set up many mortgages for postmen and women in the late 80 and through the nineties, particularly Right to Buys and we were receiving payslips then showing average gross earnings of £15k and up to £20k with overtime. There were a lot more extras shown on the payslips in them days, but as these were as good as guaranteed we were able to take them into account. Perhaps some that were working with Royal Mail previously could enlighten us as to the real truth regarding whether wages have increased significantly or not.

Lincox its is a fair question but as fishtank as said we use to have low basic pay with high overtime levels that was the culture , some had second jobs to do in the afternoon. As late as 1995 Alan Johnson our old General Secretary used to do briefings for various outside groups and used to start with the National Rate was 10,000 working a 6 day week. Now during the 90s we had a number years when they was public sector pay freeze or a maximum set. To be truthful the way pay rises were handeled back then was that pay talks would start in October ( when the pay date was October ) and conclude in December or January and regardless of the actual pay rise most members voted yes because of the backpay.

The way forward , Pay and Major change agreement and good pay deals during the noughties helped to increase basic pay.

However I am back in the office at some stage on Tuesday after meetings in the morning so will attempt to dig out and post the pay rates from the 90s and noughties to show you the huge difference.

[london sub]

I don't think anybody in my office wanted to go ahead with the deal but it's a win win situation for royal mail.

Let me explain...

1. If we stuck to what we were doing with the 3.5hr delivery span then the office would have a split of 70 odd percent part time and 20 odd percent full. If this option was agreed then some full time staff would have their hours reduced. So why on earth would a postie who has a full time contract and possibly has a family, mortgage, want to reduce his or her contract.

2. On the other end of the stick you had the part time staff who over half of which wanted a full time position, and some would get EVR if they chose to pick a longer delivery span (p&l) which they would never have to do...and of course money was an incentive to every one.

This has been cleverly calculated out by some boffins that knew this was a win win deal for royal mail.

Its not royal mails fault for getting us to vote this in or the cwu but us alone.

It would be ok to say that 90% of offices are running like clockwork with the new system but the facts are it aint, and we the posties need to tell everyone that its a no deal up and down the country...but its difficult road to go from full time down to part time by not agreeing with moderisation. Basically were screwed and theres nothing you can do about it!

[fishtank]

When I was a local rep I knew if the revison was going to be a failure or not or whether the deal was a good deal or not. If I thought it was not right I would go and explain that to the members and in most cases they would back me and we would say we not having it.

When you were a local rep dingo there was no such thing as the Indoor Work Tool,Pegasus,Walk Sequenced Mail or Planners.
A table top revision has as much in common with a fully integrated revision as a fish does with a tube of toothpaste as your guys in London will soon find out..
The problem is these revisions are uncharted ground for managers and reps..even if you think about van-share.
An experienced rep can look at a duty and say it will take X hours but how many hours will it take 2 guys...with a trolley?....the computer/planner says X...the rep says Y...and the duty holder says Z..now multiply that by 100 duties and we are 3 months down the line and pressure is being applied from above...on both sides.

No-one...not even guys with 35 years in the job has any experience of this...mistakes will be made.

[dvbuk55]

Our revision was created in the main by the planner and a manager with some input from the Rep, who in fairness hadn't a great deal of delivery experience for a number of years. He made the point that the traffic figure was too low in his opinion but the planner said that the lower figure was best, the rep disagreed, the figure stood! Then we come to the point of full time and part time which is really a stick to beat our backs with, because if you try to use a small delivery span you end up with insufficient indoor work to keep full time work.

Park and Loop is really an imponderable, even to a unit that has had it in part for 2 years.......nobody expected the packets/parcels/tracked to balloon as they have. In addition it is only on this revision that LCTs have been introduced which has created more problems time-wise. We should have a review at the beginning of February but the WSMs are due to be installed mid Feb with the next revision because of sequenced mail due in March.

Now using the same argument that dingo uses:

Our unit brought in 12 extra vehicles. 12 extra HCTs and in February there will be 2 WSMs, now according to dingo because RM had spent the money we had to accept the agreement, are we then supposed to refuse to use the equipment that has been agreed for the Delivery Methods and Sequenced revisions? If so then why didn't the CWU refuse to enter into negotiations just because Royal Mail had spent the money? It seems to me that dingo is applying dual standards and wants individual units to stand up and face the music whilst the National negotiators are quite happy to blithely go along with RMs plans. Had the national union had the cojones to stand up and be counted unit reps wouldn't be in the position they are.

[bunkerland]

The way forward , Pay and Major change agreement and good pay deals during the noughties helped to increase basic pay.

However I am back in the office at some stage on Tuesday after meetings in the morning so will attempt to dig out and post the pay rates from the 90s and noughties to show you the huge difference.

Just to provide some balance,could you also list the various allowances received at that time too,ie....Saturday premium,night duty,driving,bike-£2.16 i think etc!

If you can find any information on what a posties average wage was at that time,that would be pretty interesting too! Cheers in advance!

[andy2007]

Dingo, we're not saying that we think that we should have been told what "plan B" would be. What we ARE saying, is that it was an underhanded scare tactic, to repeatedly tell us that we should accept the deal, because "there is no plan "b""!

Also, although on here, it's mainly the revisions which are being discussed. You and I both know, that there are other problems with the deal. They aren't as widespread, but they exist.

[Big Daz]

1991 at 16 years of age and on a 41.5 hour week my pay after tax and NI was £100. Seemed like a small fortune at the time

Now 20 years later on a 30 hour week its £241 but will be around £245 with April's increase and no leave purchase and a bit more again if I wasnt paying for a bike.

[clashcityrocker]

How do the members know if the revision will fail if it's based on the lowest traffic week and we are in the middle of the highest?
It's not even designed to work at this time of year and even management didn't know and still don't know if it will work.

There are 2 sides to our work - indoor and outdoor.
If the lowest traffic week is used for the indoor part of the work, then extra staff (p/t) need to be brought in to ensure there are sufficient indoor hours available to cover the indoor workload. Isn't that what is meant by flexing up?
In order for this to work, there needs to be: 1.an accurate count of the traffic, 2. there needs to be an adequate level of skills in the office and 3. there needs to be proper presentation of the mail from the MC.

The other side of our work is the outdoor part.
This is where most of the complaints about the introduction of revisions seems to be on here.
The deliveries are taking longer than anticipated - partly because the new methods are causing problems (trolleys are slower) but partly because (I am guessing) there is no proper way of "flexing up" on the outdoor section.
If your revision has set your attendance rate at 65% for the lowest week, how is the duty adjusted for anything over a 65% call rate. The same problem would apply to the attendance rate. How is the duty adjusted to take into account the huge increase in packets we have just witnessed in December.

If the call rate was set at 100% and we were expected to do 1 D2D contract/day, couldn't we avoid at least some of the problems with the outdoor calculations. This would help to counter the disparity between different times of the year.