YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW

[OnAFlyer]

Fishtank that's a load of rubbish you obviously were not around for the way forward ! It sounded the end of keggie and hogan and a number of pec members ! It split the union and membership for years after ! This outrage over this agreement does not come close to what happened in the aftermath of the way forward

That's because the WF agreement was a massive change for all staff, as well as being absolute garbage. P&M 2007 wasn't such a big change, but was still absolute garbage. 2010 is actually the worst agreement out of the lot and that's saying something. The difference now is that we're all used to being completely shafted, and have no confidence in the CWU to get a decent agreement.

The reason there isn't as much outrage over this agreement is that we all expected it to be shite, there are no suprises anymore. (£20 for unlimited D2D paid Pro rata was a good one though). Everyone is resigned to the fact the job has gone t*ts up.

Nobody expected the job to carry on as it was 10+ years ago, but it's gone completely the other way. I'm a damn quick postie but once our P&L revision comes in i'm already resigned to the fact i'll be working my hours and bringing the rest back. I'm actually slightly embarrassed to be a postie these days, that's how low this company and it's service has been allowed to sink.

[realmichael]

well well, i attended the Manchester roadshow and can distinctly remember being told from on high that "there is no plan b"
sounds to me Dingo you are trying to re-write history

[bunkerland]

As it happened the members of the CWU who decided to vote , voted yes. As the quote goes , Success has many authors but failure has none.

I think in this case the author of failure has always been clear,the CWU and RM planned the book,wrote the book and practically forced people to buy the book! Many people warned that the book was badly flawed but again the CWU/RM combo persuaded them that there was no other alternative up for sale!!

With millions of d2d undelivered and the disgraceful scenes of undelivered Christmas mail all over the country,due largely to park and loop failure,i don't think it's the time to be coy about who should take responsibility!! Seems pretty obvious to most of us!

[stokes11eg]

Fishtank that's a load of rubbish you obviously were not around for the way forward ! It sounded the end of keggie and hogan and a number of pec members ! It split the union and membership for years after ! This outrage over this agreement does not come close to what happened in the aftermath of the way forward

That's because the WF agreement was a massive change for all staff, as well as being absolute garbage. P&M 2007 wasn't such a big change, but was still absolute garbage. 2010 is actually the worst agreement out of the lot and that's saying something. The difference now is that we're all used to being completely shafted, and have no confidence in the CWU to get a decent agreement.

The reason there isn't as much outrage over this agreement is that we all expected it to be shite, there are no suprises anymore. (£20 for unlimited D2D paid Pro rata was a good one though). Everyone is resigned to the fact the job has gone t*ts up.

Nobody expected the job to carry on as it was 10+ years ago, but it's gone completely the other way. I'm a damn quick postie but once our P&L revision comes in i'm already resigned to the fact i'll be working my hours and bringing the rest back. I'm actually slightly embarrassed to be a postie these days, that's how low this company and it's service has been allowed to sink.

Only slightly embarrassed! I'm black affronted myself-- especially now I am wrapped up in my new ill fitting uniform! Don't even polish the footwear any more! That's how low I have sunk!(Postman--your smileys aren't linking up again!)

[ulster postie]

Glad to see a debate on-going about this debacle of a so called union. I was a loyal member of this union for 20yrs from the days of U.C.W. to the now so called C.W.U. All my working life i was a strong beliver in the trade union and its principles i.e. a collective body willing to stand up against any employer whos only aim was to not only destroy my working conditions but the union itself. Alas i fear that my faith in unions especialy this one has sadly ended.
I strongly belive that if this union is to survive, the rank and file of the membership have to take back control and cast aside the leadership,who in m.h.o.are only interested in furthering their own policital advancement.
As far as this arguement about a plan b is concerned, if a trade union cannot or will not produce a counter proposal against an employer to safe-guard their members working conditions and income, they ought to have the moral duty and stand down.
RANT OVER HAPPY NEW YEAR

[POSTMAN GATTUSO]

My appologies dingo your right,all the moaning is done in the canteen etc but wee do nothing.

[Big Daz]

dingo

Im not after workplace ballots, I just dont think its a good idea to implement major change without a substantial mandate.

The mbrs in my D.O are most certainly not wanting park and loop and certainly havent embraced the new DTD/delivery supplement set up. Even new attendance patterns are not seen as a good thing.

So basically the CWU has to try and win over all the apathetic/unhappy mbrs along the way and so far I would say there is still some way to go.

[dvbuk55]

It makes you wonder what part dingo had to play in the machinations of this agreement he is such a proud proponent of it and all its faults and then has the gall to blame the members.

Lets not be in any doubt why this agreement came about. It was for the CWU and the hierarchy not for the membership. The CWU felt it was being marginalised by RM and that was probably true, the only way to be "re-recognised" was to agree to the changes that RM had already embarked on. RM had threatened the structure of release, not commonly quoted of course and in fact have made overtures even within this agreement that in order for it to survive then full time release reps must play a more active role..............yet to be seen of course, other than to pay lip service to RMs plans. The three ring circus embarked upon and the lack of information about the agreement to the membership brought about an agreement of sorts.

If the agreement was any good it would have been embraced by the membership and implemented much faster than the snails pace at present.

[ulster postie]

It was for the CWU and the hierarchy not for the membership

[andy2007]

Well Dingo, until I caught up on my messages today. I saw you as a worthy advisary, regarding this sham of a deal. But attempting to re-write history, is a very low tactic. I'm not so sure about you now.

1) We were repeatedly told that there was no plan "B".
2) Unless you had access to the Internet, or had someone like me, willing to print the information out for you. Then you only had the CWU's "summary" of what we were voting on. Hardly the right way to have a fair, and impartial vote.
3) There were a lot of big egos at stake over this "deal", and we all know, that if it didn't get in, there'd be certain people having to eat "humble pie". So they went to great lengths to make people think that if they didn't vote yes, we'd be screwed.

I have no problem with you defending the deal, particularly as it was voted in. But to try to deny that those tactics were used, is frankly pathetic. At least when we had this type of discussion with Lovejoy, he stuck to the facts. I never agreed with him about the 2007 deal. But he earned my utmost respect, for the way he conducted himself in the often heated discussions about it. Both before, and after it got in.

[Darren Bent]

I voted No as well. But we are stuck with it until next pay talk. Every time we have a bonus/pay rise our job get worse and worse. Why can't we have a bonus without having to agree to their new terms and conditions.

[Martin Walsh]

Andy I am not re-writing history at all , you may not care to like it but there was always a plan b. People like Dave , Gibbo and others have been in lots of disputes and testing time , you know what you want but you also know what your back up plan is as well. The only difference is if you let everyone know your back up plan then most wont want you plan a . Why well plan a is certain change today and plan b will pehaps mean change tomorrow.

In terms of your second point , well there was a briefing for every local reps , there was a national two day briefing , there was special AGMs and loads of Branch"s produced a copy for members.PEC members went to loads of Branch meetings and an LTB went out asking if members wanted copy than contact the Branch. Now in an ideal world without concerns about finances you would have printed 130 ,000 60 odd pages and sent them by sized based pricing to every members home address but seriously how many members would have read it ? Sad but true how many times have you seen 4 page leaflets not read by members ?

Yes union leaders have egos , well it would be worrying if they did not. But if you spent over 4 months of your time in talks with Royal Mail in hotels all over the country arguing over every word , paragraph or principle that you would not argue that its is the best negotiated agreement you could achieve. Believe me having been involved with both Roger Poole and ACAS they dont suffer fools lightly and are challenging to both parties in trying to get them see each others postions. Its very easy for someone on a board like this to say that the CWU have sold out by agreeing this or that but if your in the room and your arguing the facts and Royal Mail open their accounts to the CWU or if they demonstate something like sequencing cannot be done earler or that door to door can only grow if its put into workload than it is differcult not to accept those principles , and then attempt to get the best deal out of that.

Equally if a business states we are now going to invest in CDVs and this is how we are going to deliver to any delivery point more than a mile away than providng there is a framework for dealing with this than that is a business decision. In the same way if a car plant stated we are going to build the escort instead of the mini and we are going to use a different machine to do this.

For the record maybe I am a bit closer to some facts than Lovejoy ! So dont ever think what I write I am re-writing history , if you want to pm me I will explain further. Good luck

[andy2007]

Dingo, you might be right about what happened in the London meetings. But up North, we were only told where we could download the agreement. And from what I've read on here: the same thing was happening in other parts of the Country too.

However: My main objections to your recent posts, are:
1) Your claim that we were never told "there is no plan "b"". We were told that repeatedly, at meetings, and if I remember correctly, it was in at least one of the letters we recieved. Although I could be wrong. It was a while ago, and I don't still have them to check. Now it's obvious from what was posted on here at the time, that it wasn't just my area, being told that. For all I know, things could have been different in London. But I seriously doubt it.

2) Claiming that everything that's going wrong with the deal, is down to Local Reps and OPGs not using it properly. How about taking some responsibility for this fiasco, instead of passing the buck.

Now as for my attitude to the deal itself: It was voted in by the majority of those who bothered to vote, so we're stuck with it. But that doesn't make the tactics used to get that yes vote, right, does it?
Would we have complained so much if it was voted out, with so few bothering to vote?
No. You're right, we wouldn't have done. And I for one, haven't claimed that it was anything but a legal and valid Ballot. The ONLY reason I keep bringing it up. Is because so many are accusing others of voting for it (non-Delivery Posties, people on here (the first post in this thread), etc.), when the fact is, that it didn't take a particularly large proportion to get it in. And if everyone had voted, there's a good chance things woud have been different. Obviously, it could have turned out the same. No-one will ever know now. But my point is: stop trying to blame eveyone else, and try to get people to pull their fingers out, and excercise their Democratic right to vote.