Royal Mail staff in Ramadan holiday row

[clashcityrocker]

but I have a mone (moan) in mine

Someone called Ram one can't mone.

[BELIAL]

Pissed myself laughing ,then got well roused when some C of E shithead declared a 4 month old a sinner. What a bunch of tossers.Brain dead fuckwits the lot of them

[bobbyden]

Well ramone the thing is...i'm more concerned about non-religious physical and mental abuse of children...it's far more common...i'm more concerned about non-religious sexual and gender discrimination....it's far more common.
The danger in becoming too obsessed with the abuses of a minority within a particular religion is that...
A...You tar the entire religion with the same brush....think muslim...think 9/11....think terrorist.
B...You allow the abuses of many outside that particular obsession to go unchecked.

Again thanks for the reply
I have no issue with law abiding religious people, which most of them are good people, but as people who support these religions whose followers carry out these acts. When do religious people stand up and be counted on these issues (was there a Catholic protest at the weekend regarding the sex abuse of children?) No,the sheep turned up unquestioning as ever. - I am pleased to see you are concerned with the abuse of children and if my last post seemed to imply that you were not concerned about these issues please accept my apologies. I have worked within the child protection arena and understand the issues of child abuse in the wider community. My concerns with religion is that the dogma of secracy is endemic and promoted within it to protect the establishment of the church and religion. Good people do good things, evil people do evil things only religion can make good people do evil things

It might be of interest to know that many practising Roman Catholics are deeply concerned and very shocked, concerning the abuse of children by priests. The state visit of Pope Benedict XV1, was not a case as you put it, "the sheep turned up as unquestioning as ever". That is a cheap insult at the thousands of pilgrims who travelled from all parts of the country to attend the various open-air services and to be part of the experience of seeing the leader of their religious faith, for the majority, a once in a lifetime experience. I salute them and having watched the coverage on the BBC and Sky News, it goes beyond saying, the visit of the Pope was a great honour for this country.

Attending mass, lighting candles, administering the sacrament of the sick, bringing comfort to the dying and many other virtuous acts are what these "sheep" as you call them do on a regular basis in the parishes which they represented in Edinburgh, London and Birmingham. They give of their time because of their faith and belief in God and you would do well to remember that. The world is a better place for these people.

Yes, there are problems within the Roman Catholic church and I very much doubt if there is a Catholic who does not recognise that. Catholicism has received the biggest shake up call it could ever have imagined and rightly so. The very thought of priests mocking the trust placed upon them by abusing innocent children is disgusting beyond compare. As with the victims, the Catholic Church will never fully recover from this awful state of events. What it can do though is to be fully accountable and transparent and I think Pope Benedict XV1 and whoever succeeds him in Rome will ensure this happens. The followers of Catholicism are entitled to this, but more importantly so are the victims whose innocence as children saw them pay a terrible price.

[ramone]

Well ramone the thing is...i'm more concerned about non-religious physical and mental abuse of children...it's far more common...i'm more concerned about non-religious sexual and gender discrimination....it's far more common.
The danger in becoming too obsessed with the abuses of a minority within a particular religion is that...
A...You tar the entire religion with the same brush....think muslim...think 9/11....think terrorist.
B...You allow the abuses of many outside that particular obsession to go unchecked.

Again thanks for the reply
I have no issue with law abiding religious people, which most of them are good people, but as people who support these religions whose followers carry out these acts. When do religious people stand up and be counted on these issues (was there a Catholic protest at the weekend regarding the sex abuse of children?) No,the sheep turned up unquestioning as ever. - I am pleased to see you are concerned with the abuse of children and if my last post seemed to imply that you were not concerned about these issues please accept my apologies. I have worked within the child protection arena and understand the issues of child abuse in the wider community. My concerns with religion is that the dogma of secracy is endemic and promoted within it to protect the establishment of the church and religion. Good people do good things, evil people do evil things only religion can make good people do
evil things

Hi Bobbyden
Thank you for the reply
I asumme you are of the catholic religion, if so I hope you can answer some questions that concern me.
It might be of interest to know that many practising Roman Catholics are deeply concerned and very shocked, concerning the abuse of children by priests.

Really pleased to hear this as all right thinking people should be shocked and concerned by the abuse of children by priests or by any adults whom they place trust in. But what are you doing voice your opinions or concerns of this issue?

The state visit of Pope Benedict XV1, was not a case as you put it, "the sheep turned up as unquestioning as ever". That is a cheap insult at the thousands of pilgrims who travelled from all parts of the country to attend the various open-air services and to be part of the experience of seeing the leader of their religious faith, for the majority, a once in a lifetime experience.

There was no insult intended but I was using the termingnology of "sheep" which is used in connection with the church i.e. "The Lord is my Shepard" - "Pastoral care"- "looking after the flock". Did the "sheep" voice their concerns? I didn't hear them - did you? It was not a cheap shot in my opinion. Because a few thousand people turned up to an event to see a man who is said to be the "Lord's vicar" - (the vast majority could have travelled to Rome via Ryanair for less than a tenner and seen him his "state" every Sunday for less than the £35 they had to pay!) does that mean we all have to share in this "experience" and to pay for this "wonderful experience" via our taxes.

I salute them and having watched the coverage on the BBC and Sky News, it goes beyond saying, the visit of the Pope was a great honour for this country.

How was this an honour to this country? Do you know what the pope is accused of? if you don't please check this out http://www.protest-the-pope.org.uk/mr-r ... rap-sheet/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Attending mass, lighting candles, administering the sacrament of the sick, bringing comfort to the dying and many other virtuous acts are what these "sheep" as you call them do on a regular basis in the parishes which they represented in Edinburgh, London and Birmingham. They give of their time because of their faith and belief in God and you would do well to remember that. The world is a better place for these people

On the Sunday of the Popes visit - 54,000 people in Newcastle ran 13 miles and raised millions of pounds for good causes to help people and their communities - Did they need belief in religion or god to achieve this task? These people make the world a better place. A great saying you would do well to remember is "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish"

Yes, there are problems within the Roman Catholic church and I very much doubt if there is a Catholic who does not recognise that. Catholicism has received the biggest shake up call it could ever have imagined and rightly so. The very thought of priests mocking the trust placed upon them by abusing innocent children is disgusting beyond compare. As with the victims, the Catholic Church will never fully recover from this awful state of events. What it can do though is to be fully accountable and transparent and I think Pope Benedict XV1 and whoever succeeds him in Rome will ensure this happens. The followers of Catholicism are entitled to this, but more importantly so are the victims whose innocence as children saw them pay a terrible price.

So what are you going to do about it?

[Tman]

I expect he'll do as much about it as the local Muslims did about the 9/11 perpetrators, or the 7/7 bombers, ie nothing.
But then most people accept the view that he (or the Pope) or the local Muslim community aren't to blame for others' twisted views, and so there's nothing to do.

Always intrigues me that to criticise Jews can easily result in the charge of anti-Semitism, to criticise Islam risks being labelled as ignorant and reactionary, yet to criticise the world's biggest Christian denomination in any way is OK?
Those old liberal double-standards again....

[ramone]

I expect he'll do as much about it as the local Muslims did about the 9/11 perpetrators, or the 7/7 bombers, ie nothing.
But then most people accept the view that he (or the Pope) or the local Muslim community aren't to blame for others' twisted views, and so there's nothing to do.

Always intrigues me that to criticise Jews can easily result in the charge of anti-Semitism, to criticise Islam risks being labelled as ignorant and reactionary, yet to criticise the world's biggest Christian denomination in any way is OK?
Those old liberal double-standards again....

Acutually, Tman the blasphmay laws are still on the law books and therefore can still be used against those who speak out against christianity. The problem with religious people is they do not like having their beliefs questioned, which is all we are doing. Again if I was arguing from a policital point of view my beliefs could be challanged, rightly so, but I can not go to court to get someone to stop people saying those "nasty" things about my political beliefs.

[DirtyHarry]

You've got to laugh, 'aint ya?

[Tman]

Acutually, Tman the blasphmay laws are still on the law books and therefore can still be used against those who speak out against christianity.

Maybe.....so when was the last blasphemy trial when someone "spoke out against Christianity", as opposed to painting/singing about or publishing what could have been perceived as offensive stuff, and the law of blasphemy used to stop it? There's a big difference.

The problem with religious people is they do not like having their beliefs questioned, which is all we are doing.

I don't see that. All I see is you asking (what appears to be a Catholic believer) what he is going to do about the Catholic church's current child abuse scandal.
Even if you were "questioning his beliefs", what would be the point? He (or any other believer of whichever faith) is hardly going to be swayed by some faceless poster on the Internet, or be impressed that someone asks the somewhat ridiculous question of "why?" is he?

Again if I was arguing from a policital point of view my beliefs could be challanged, rightly so, but I can not go to court to get someone to stop people saying those "nasty" things about my political beliefs.

So what's your point? You want more political censorship then?

[ramone]

Hi Tman
The religious groups are the biggest political / thought crime censors of them all. As for the blasphmay laws you maybe right but they are still on the law books - and only last week we had a government spokesperson, Baroness Warsi saying this government was going to "do god". I have no probem in challenging any religion, the poster was arguing in the positive for the catholic church I merely offered a rebutal. If we have a muslim or jewish or scientoligist poster enter the debate I would be more than willing to challenge their beliefs as I hope they would challenge mine. Would it make any difference having this debate, not sure about the poster, but I know I have had my beliefs challenged by reading posts on various subjects. The point I am making here is the forums are for debate, if people become better informed on issues maybe peoples beliefs may change.

[axeman]

News Flash ...the world is round ever since ''religion'' was invented thoughts were it was flat 'nasa' has finaly proved it's round .... trouble is the muslims (some) still consider that values writen yonks ago and indoctrinated into the children (bible schools are not 'forced') still hold credence in todays fast evolving world which is why the divide between men and women still exists

[bobbyden]

Well ramone the thing is...i'm more concerned about non-religious physical and mental abuse of children...it's far more common...i'm more concerned about non-religious sexual and gender discrimination....it's far more common.
The danger in becoming too obsessed with the abuses of a minority within a particular religion is that...
A...You tar the entire religion with the same brush....think muslim...think 9/11....think terrorist.
B...You allow the abuses of many outside that particular obsession to go unchecked.

Again thanks for the reply
I have no issue with law abiding religious people, which most of them are good people, but as people who support these religions whose followers carry out these acts. When do religious people stand up and be counted on these issues (was there a Catholic protest at the weekend regarding the sex abuse of children?) No,the sheep turned up unquestioning as ever. - I am pleased to see you are concerned with the abuse of children and if my last post seemed to imply that you were not concerned about these issues please accept my apologies. I have worked within the child protection arena and understand the issues of child abuse in the wider community. My concerns with religion is that the dogma of secracy is endemic and promoted within it to protect the establishment of the church and religion. Good people do good things, evil people do evil things only religion can make good people do
evil things

Hi Bobbyden
Thank you for the reply
I asumme you are of the catholic religion, if so I hope you can answer some questions that concern me.
It might be of interest to know that many practising Roman Catholics are deeply concerned and very shocked, concerning the abuse of children by priests.

Really pleased to hear this as all right thinking people should be shocked and concerned by the abuse of children by priests or by any adults whom they place trust in. But what are you doing voice your opinions or concerns of this issue?

The state visit of Pope Benedict XV1, was not a case as you put it, "the sheep turned up as unquestioning as ever". That is a cheap insult at the thousands of pilgrims who travelled from all parts of the country to attend the various open-air services and to be part of the experience of seeing the leader of their religious faith, for the majority, a once in a lifetime experience.

There was no insult intended but I was using the termingnology of "sheep" which is used in connection with the church i.e. "The Lord is my Shepard" - "Pastoral care"- "looking after the flock". Did the "sheep" voice their concerns? I didn't hear them - did you? It was not a cheap shot in my opinion. Because a few thousand people turned up to an event to see a man who is said to be the "Lord's vicar" - (the vast majority could have travelled to Rome via Ryanair for less than a tenner and seen him his "state" every Sunday for less than the £35 they had to pay!) does that mean we all have to share in this "experience" and to pay for this "wonderful experience" via our taxes.

I salute them and having watched the coverage on the BBC and Sky News, it goes beyond saying, the visit of the Pope was a great honour for this country.

How was this an honour to this country? Do you know what the pope is accused of? if you don't please check this out http://www.protest-the-pope.org.uk/mr-r ... rap-sheet/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Attending mass, lighting candles, administering the sacrament of the sick, bringing comfort to the dying and many other virtuous acts are what these "sheep" as you call them do on a regular basis in the parishes which they represented in Edinburgh, London and Birmingham. They give of their time because of their faith and belief in God and you would do well to remember that. The world is a better place for these people

On the Sunday of the Popes visit - 54,000 people in Newcastle ran 13 miles and raised millions of pounds for good causes to help people and their communities - Did they need belief in religion or god to achieve this task? These people make the world a better place. A great saying you would do well to remember is "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish"

Yes, there are problems within the Roman Catholic church and I very much doubt if there is a Catholic who does not recognise that. Catholicism has received the biggest shake up call it could ever have imagined and rightly so. The very thought of priests mocking the trust placed upon them by abusing innocent children is disgusting beyond compare. As with the victims, the Catholic Church will never fully recover from this awful state of events. What it can do though is to be fully accountable and transparent and I think Pope Benedict XV1 and whoever succeeds him in Rome will ensure this happens. The followers of Catholicism are entitled to this, but more importantly so are the victims whose innocence as children saw them pay a terrible price.

So what are you going to do about it?

In response to what you say:

Firstly, I am not a practising Roman Catholic, but I have enormous respect for these people, something which you do not have. I based what I said in my opening paragraph from having spoken to Catholics of my aquaintance. Not surprisingly, you twisted it to suit your own prejudice. Try something more original in future!! You obviously did not read the last paragraph. Please read it again, I could hardly have been more specific.

I am sorry you feel so hard done by over the cost of the Pope's visit. Again, the lack of respect towards the pilgrims was so evident.

Pope Benedict XV1 is accused of nothing, except that is by a ropey website with credentials less than impressive. If they are so convinced of their case, let them press charges. I will not be holding my breath on that one. Better still, why don't you press charges. I will not be holding my breath on that one either.

Those who took part in the Great North Run are to be commended. I have no argument with you on that.

Reading between the lines, you expect people of the Catholic faith to stop practising their religion. No doubt, there are many catholics who will turn their backs on the church in the light of this scandal. I fully understand that, but, there are many who will stick with their beliefs and up-bringing. That is what they will do because the reality is, that is all they can do. Life is never as straightforward as you would like it to be.

Regards

Bobbyden

[bobbyden]

I expect he'll do as much about it as the local Muslims did about the 9/11 perpetrators, or the 7/7 bombers, ie nothing.
But then most people accept the view that he (or the Pope) or the local Muslim community aren't to blame for others' twisted views, and so there's nothing to do.

Always intrigues me that to criticise Jews can easily result in the charge of anti-Semitism, to criticise Islam risks being labelled as ignorant and reactionary, yet to criticise the world's biggest Christian denomination in any way is OK?
Those old liberal double-standards again....

You have all the answers, you do something. Go on, let us see what you are made of. More than likely though, you are all talk and no action. Prove me wrong.

[bobbyden]

News Flash ...the world is round ever since ''religion'' was invented thoughts were it was flat 'nasa' has finaly proved it's round .... trouble is the muslims (some) still consider that values writen yonks ago and indoctrinated into the children (bible schools are not 'forced') still hold credence in todays fast evolving world which is why the divide between men and women still exists

I will give you credit, in so much as, the spelling has improved. It really could not have got worse!! Unfortunately, the punctuation is still well below par. More work is needed on that aspect of things. As for the opinions, capable of better is the polite term to use.

[bobbyden]

Hi Tman
The religious groups are the biggest political / thought crime censors of them all. As for the blasphmay laws you maybe right but they are still on the law books - and only last week we had a government spokesperson, Baroness Warsi saying this government was going to "do god". I have no probem in challenging any religion, the poster was arguing in the positive for the catholic church I merely offered a rebutal. If we have a muslim or jewish or scientoligist poster enter the debate I would be more than willing to challenge their beliefs as I hope they would challenge mine. Would it make any difference having this debate, not sure about the poster, but I know I have had my beliefs challenged by reading posts on various subjects. The point I am making here is the forums are for debate, if people become better informed on issues maybe peoples beliefs may change.

Baroness Warsi is the Chair-person of the Conservative Party. She received quite alot of media publicity last week for saying absolutely nothing whatsoever. The noble Baroness is a dab hand in political opportunism and the "doing god" soundbite was a case in point. Her overall performance was dreadful and by close of play, the media more or less gave up on her. There is certainly very little strength or depth within the ranks of the Conservative Party. If there was, Baroness Varsi would be out the back with the also-rans.

let it be said, there was a lukewarm response from the Tories concerning the noble Baroness and her "doing God" presentation. She needs a worldbeating performance at the up-coming Conservative Party Conference if she is to save her political skin in the longterm. Personally speaking, I do not think she has what it takes, and I will be surprised if she lasts much beyond next summer, the usual time in the political cycle, when Prime Ministers ditch the useless and replace them with something hopefully better.

[Tman]

You have all the answers, you do something. Go on, let us see what you are made of. More than likely though, you are all talk and no action. Prove me wrong.

Maybe you should reread what was posted and my reply to it.
Of course "I'm all talk and no action" but it ain't my fight, and in reality I was fighting in your corner against someone who felt that you should do something re child abuse...