Royal Mail staff in Ramadan holiday row

[dvbuk55]

What we need to remember is, that they are our fellow workers, our brothers and sisters. An injury to one, is an injury to all. And it's about time we started putting that philosophy into practice. Don't you think?

Yes - if it is reciprocal

Sorry IMHO No - if a thing is right you do it because its right, not because you expect something in return.

Very christian of you............. I'm not an adherent to turning the other cheek though I would honour do unto others as......etc

[andy2007]

Try reading my earlier posts properly. . I confirmed that the 200 years of crusades, were fought in the name of Christianity, and added an earlier example. Teebs has also added some extra ones.But sticking to my examples (as you seem to think this is a personal issue, between you and I): Are you

OK Andy. Obviously you can't or won't say anything new, so let it go.

One last thing before I do. Are you denying that one, or both of the examples I provided, were sold to the public/armies, as Holy Wars?
If so, why do you think you know more than the historians, who've written about them?
Do you have a TARDIS, which you used to check the facts?
There was no point in me wasting my time, researching more examples. When you were refusing to accept the two best known examples of Christian Holy Wars.

[andy2007]

What we need to remember is, that they are our fellow workers, our brothers and sisters. An injury to one, is an injury to all. And it's about time we started putting that philosophy into practice. Don't you think?

Yes - if it is reciprocal

Sorry IMHO No - if a thing is right you do it because its right, not because you expect something in return.

Very christian of you............. I'm not an adherent to turning the other cheek though I would honour do unto others as......etc

It's got nothing to do with turning the other cheek. It's about doing what's morally right, regardless of whether others are willing to do the same for you. Or any reward you might like, beyond the nice warm feeling you get from doing the right thing.

[Tman]

One last thing before I do. Are you denying that one, or both of the examples I provided, were sold to the public/armies, as Holy Wars?
If so, why do you think you know more than the historians, who've written about them?
Do you have a TARDIS, which you used to check the facts?

So now you pose a rhetorical question just to answer it with your own little joke?

There was no point in me wasting my time, researching more examples. When you were refusing to accept the two best known examples of Christian Holy Wars.

You may recall I said "other than the Crusades" but now you cite it back to me as an example? If I remember correctly you said there were "many" examples but now you say you'd need to research them? So without research how would you know if there were "many" or not?
Do you actually know what you're talking about?

[dvbuk55]

What we need to remember is, that they are our fellow workers, our brothers and sisters. An injury to one, is an injury to all. And it's about time we started putting that philosophy into practice. Don't you think?

Yes - if it is reciprocal

Sorry IMHO No - if a thing is right you do it because its right, not because you expect something in return.

Very christian of you............. I'm not an adherent to turning the other cheek though I would honour do unto others as......etc

It's got nothing to do with turning the other cheek. It's about doing what's morally right, regardless of whether others are willing to do the same for you. Or any reward you might like, beyond the nice warm feeling you get from doing the right thing.

Well you could say that andy BUT what IS the right thing? Different people have different ideas as to exactly what IS the right thing - it gives some people pleasure to give gifts because they feel it is the right thing to do and gives them a warm feeling whereas some are completely happy to receive them without making any attempt to reciprocate..................you must therefore say "the right thing" is in the eye of the beholder and has no set rules.

[andy2007]

First of all I didn't "cite the Crusades back as an example". I asked you if 200 years of wars (note the plural) wasn't enough of an example. I also gave an extra example, which you've totally ignored so far. Presumably because you're so fixated on the Crusades issue. But here are some more examples. And yes, I know these examples are all from the Middle Ages, which is because that was when the vast majority happened.
Clovis I's unificaion of the Franks, was achieved (among other methods). By calling on God to give them victory (in other words, he claimed that it was sanctioned by God. Making it a Holy War). In fact, he, and his entire army, were Baptised, after their victory over the Alemanni, a pagan Germanic tribe. In 496. It was by no means an isolated incident. But on to another example:
I assume you know about Joan of Arc?
It's a rather well known example, you know.

But if you wish to continue this discussion further, I suggest you start a new thread about it. As this one's getting clogged up, with your denials and excuses, to distance Christianity (or more accurately, those who abuse Christian teachings for their own ends) from warfare.

And as for claiming that I didn't know what I was talking about: Well, really! I was referring to a number of wars during the Middle Ages. Mainly The Crusades (which as Ive already explained weren't 1 war, but many), Joan of Arc. And although I didn't know the details without checking my facts. I also knew there were other wars around the same time, which were billed as Holy Wars. The Church was often abused by the leaders of the time, to justify their wars. Because people weren't educated, and couldn't read the Bible for themselves. So it was a convenient way of getting everyone behind them.

[Tman]

andy2007"]First of all I didn't "cite the Crusades back as an example". I asked you if 200 years of wars (note the plural) wasn't enough of an example. I also gave an extra example, which you've totally ignored so far. Presumably because you're so fixated on the Crusades issue. But here are some more examples. And yes, I know these examples are all from the Middle Ages, which is because that was when the vast majority happened.
Clovis I's unificaion of the Franks, was achieved (among other methods). By calling on God to give them victory (in other words, he claimed that it was sanctioned by God. Making it a Holy War). In fact, he, and his entire army, were Baptised, after their victory over the Alemanni, a pagan Germanic tribe. In 496. It was by no means an isolated incident. But on to another example:
I assume you know about Joan of

Andy, you need to read what's been posted before, because you've tangentialised this thread to the point of no return.
I don't see any fixation on the Crusades, in fact, I asked you to disregard them in you reply, which is something you've clearly failed to do. I'm also well-aware of Joan of Arc, thanks, and had you mentioned her previously we could have debated whether her actions could be classed as religious or nationalistic, but that moment has long passed.
So, what could have been an interesting thread has been spoilt by irrelevant sarcasm and condescending comment. Well done you.....

[TrueBlueTerrier]

andy2007"]First of all I didn't "cite the Crusades back as an example". I asked you if 200 years of wars (note the plural) wasn't enough of an example. I also gave an extra example, which you've totally ignored so far. Presumably because you're so fixated on the Crusades issue. But here are some more examples. And yes, I know these examples are all from the Middle Ages, which is because that was when the vast majority happened.
Clovis I's unificaion of the Franks, was achieved (among other methods). By calling on God to give them victory (in other words, he claimed that it was sanctioned by God. Making it a Holy War). In fact, he, and his entire army, were Baptised, after their victory over the Alemanni, a pagan Germanic tribe. In 496. It was by no means an isolated incident. But on to another example:
I assume you know about Joan of

Andy, you need to read what's been posted before, because you've tangentialised this thread to the point of no return.
I don't see any fixation on the Crusades, in fact, I asked you to disregard them in you reply, which is something you've clearly failed to do. I'm also well-aware of Joan of Arc, thanks, and had you mentioned her previously we could have debated whether her actions could be classed as religious or nationalistic, but that moment has long passed.
So, what could have been an interesting thread has been spoilt by irrelevant sarcasm and condescending comment. Well done you.....

and don't forget the cheap debating tricks by some (plural) who appear to want to control a debate rather than let it go in its own direction.

[andy2007]

And of course those who, when confronted by the fact that it's not only Muslims who've been tricked into thinking that they're fighting for God. When people want to fight political, or financially motivated wars. But Christians too. They jump on it, and won't let it go. Until they THINK they've proved you wrong. Even if that means clogging up a thread with their stubborn, and poorly thought out arguments.

Has the anti-Muslim propoganda, REALLY been that effective?

[Tman]

And then there's those wafflers who like to play the old "if the cap fits" game.
Apparently that beats just giving a straight answer to a simple question, (though that maybe because that question was not understood) ....then throw in a little sarcasm or condescension to show supposed interleckchule superiority, and to mask the non-comprehension....not that anyone here does that, of course...

[andy2007]

Has there been any attempt to make arrangements ready for next year?
If not, why not?
Surely with almost a year to prepare, RM would be able to make the neccessary arrangements to allow them the time off.

[bobbyden]

Has there been any attempt to make arrangements ready for next year?
If not, why not?
Surely with almost a year to prepare, RM would be able to make the neccessary arrangements to allow them the time off.

I would hope so. The issue of leave for the period of Ramadan and Eid is an important one and needs to be addressed more seriously. Let us see, where we are this time next year.

[baldrick]

....then throw in a little sarcasm or condescension to show supposed interleckchule superiority, and to mask the non-comprehension....not that anyone here does that, of course...

And of course you don't do that Tman.

[ramone]

I have read this thread with a great deal of interest. As a humanist, secularist and atheist (I just get holidays and get no choice about the Xmas or Easter ones lol!!) I have an issue with people taking time off for religious days – (I don’t have a problem with holidays) but where will it end …. If I believed Elvis was still alive (There are people out there who do believe this!) and I went to my DOM and asked him for a day off to watch a few DVD’s to celebrate his life or death, quite rightly the DOM could and would p*** him self laughing. If people are religious then surely it should be personal and remain within their personal time and their religion should not determine working practise. Let’s separate the workplace from religion as if we start to try to accommodate all the religious holidays I’ll not be able to pick my holidays, as I will be covering for all those who are off!!

[Straight4ward]

Ramone wrote;
I have read this thread with a great deal of interest. As a humanist, secularist and atheist (I just get holidays and get no choice about the Xmas or Easter ones lol!!) I have an issue with people taking time off for religious days – (I don’t have a problem with holidays) but where will it end …. If I believed Elvis was still alive (There are people out there who do believe this!) and I went to my DOM and asked him for a day off to watch a few DVD’s to celebrate his life or death, quite rightly the DOM could and would p*** him self laughing. If people are religious then surely it should be personal and remain within their personal time and their religion should not determine working practise. Let’s separate the workplace from religion as if we start to try to accommodate all the religious holidays I’ll not be able to pick my holidays, as I will be covering for all those who are off!!

The Ramones - - - - performed 2,263 concerts, touring virtually nonstop for 22 years. In 1996, after a tour with the Lollapalooza music festival, the band played a farewell show and disbanded. By a little more than eight years after the breakup, the band's three founding members—lead singer Joey Ramone, guitarist Johnny Ramone, and bassist Dee Dee Ramone—had all died.

I don't think it's a good idea for you Ramone to have time off!