are union in royal mail pockets

[Martin Walsh]

Minster you did not take one day strike action in the whole of last years dispute , the relaity of the situration is that we had load of consultation last year. First and foremost in 2008 we carried a policy of no savings until we go an agreement on the business plan. At 2009 conference we had numerous motions over what should have been included in the agreement and what should have not. We had a motion calling for a national strike ballot as a lot of areas were already in dispute. We had national briefings .

We had the campaign for a national yes vote and delivered a national yes vote.

When the interim agreement was reached negotitations did take place and yes they were secretive to a degree but we supplied you with information on here which you would have never known.

Now the no vote would have been more succussful if it was organised but not from a site like this , it would have had to be on the basis of Branch`s campaining and only a handful actually delivered a no vote.

I cant believe you actually believe the pro agreement supporters were in the majority on this site in the lead up to ballot , however it is funny but the ones who took the most industrial action supported the agreement and a number of those who came to the party late and only took the two days official on this site seemed to be opposed to it.

Now all unions are entitled to recommend an agreement or ask you to support an industrial action ballot. However it is the members who choose which way they go and the evidence is that this site and its views did not reflect the views of the vast majority of postal workers on this occasion. Thats the fact and no spin can change that.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Dirty Harry about sums you up when you refer to something which is now paying you 20 .60 per week as junk mail.

You cant expect people to accept that when as FTs most lost their ESA of £12 so the £20.60 is an improvement of £8 on the basic but under the old system of D2Ds to get £8.00 per week you would only have to deliver 445 leaflets in total (not Dps). Ok a lot gained from it and all power to them but those that actually delivered the D2Ds as per spec before the change, the majority have lost, at least in my office.

The fact is that mail is going to help protect hours in a delivery unit.

When.

Our office says we have enough time even when we get 4 D2Ds, and when we question it nothing happens despite the best efforts of the local and ADR.

Would the union have been responsible to say with declining mail volumes that we did not want door to door into workload ? For god sake how many people on here have been complaining about increasing part times and the reduction of full time jobs , and how many on here have been complaining about absorption. We need extra work its a no brainer.

No its not a "No brainer" there are other options which could have been presented to the membership and the most popular being accepted. For instance we could have gone to a 35hour gross week with loss of pay admittedly, I would have gone for that. Perhaps we could have gone for a reduction in hours worked on a daily basis but no change in the weekly - ie going back to 6 day weeks made up of for instance (6.5,6.5,7,7,7,6) or any combination thereof)

Now lets have a look at longer delivery spans , well if indoor work is reducing due to automation and it is , IPS has reduced and under walk sequencing so will the total time for prep then how do you maintain jobs if you dont have a longer span ?

Why the focus on keeping the hours the same why not reduce the working hours or change the pattern. BTW IPS may have reduced but we still fail on a busy days because they have cut the hours so much we can only cope on "average days" - yes it is reported up the CWU chain.

The union has now got door to door into workload to assist the decline in prep but the reality is that a longer span is an option. But there are a number of protections , one is when do you receive your second batch system from your MPU , the second is that you cannot have a longer span unless you have a delivery methods revision and then each walk will be risk assessed including the CDV loops. In addition there are on -going reports into fatigue and stress on delivery which will also be factored in. So tell me what offices have now got 5 hour walks apart from SPDOs who have had them for years and years without any of you moaning about them.

I am guessing as I don't know for a fact but the 5hr deliveries in SPDOs are because of the make up of the duties. I am guessing that most are mainly rural or spread out. A 5 hour duty with long gaps between DPs is a different kettle of fish to a high density estate in a town.

It is good though that fatigue and stress is being looked at, I hope that the CWU is looking at it independently though rather than relying on RMs figures from a "Courier" style office.

Now later Saturdays , so what was the union meant to do ? Get everyone to go out on strike to get maintain an early Saturday even thou some already work later on Saturdays.

You could have gained some concessions or changed the work pattern as suggested earlier in this post. Or perhaps even an extra allowance for working Saturdays. After all RM believe Saturday deliveries are a unique selling point so why are we not being rewarded for it.

This would have meant in order for the union to achieve this that Royal Mail would have had to stop working sequencing machines entirely on a Friday into Saturday. It would have impacted on Mail Centres as well. Plus delivery offices would have had to have a different staffing levels on a Saturday to what they had on Monday - Friday when they had walk sequencing as they would have had to do all the IPS and all the prep. Now I have been on strike for lots of things in the past some important and some which were in scheme of things not but how would we have looked in the eyes of the public if we had stated on one hand we wanted an agreement on automation but you cant run your machines on a Friday night or Saturday morning ?

I agree we could not have expected RM not to run the machines for a Saturday but we could have gained concessions from it as suggested earlier in my post.

[welshy808]

Dingo,
The 2010 And Beyond Agreement is pathetic, but it was accepted by the members, so we have to work with the what we have. The whole D2D into workload is a farce and claiming that it’s worth £20.60 to some one implies that they are fulltime, the majority of fulltime staff (in my office at least) lost their ESA so it is only worth £8 something. You shouldn’t be pushing on what is generally seen as one of the bad points of the deal. There are good elements in the agreement, the H&S elements are excellent and will protect as many jobs as you claim putting D2D into workload will. I wish someone from higher up would advertise these parts of the agreement, bag weights are the prime example. If you work in any sort of hilly area the amount of replenishment time needed when you have 5kg bags would be enormous. Or if using a trolley from CDV your walk speed is reduced. These are the things that benefit our members not taking away payment for D2D which gave a real life wage cut.

[Night Tonic]

This is hilarious. A minority of workers, and it IS a minority as most voted in favour of the agreement remember, recycle the same old "we've been done over big time by the CWU" when the union has gained much on your behalf. The same tired names spewing out the same guff that they were two years ago. In the meantime RMC seems to have run itself up some kind of self indulgent cul-de-sac with no one left to shout at except a union man that is doing his level best to keep you informed and dispel the myths. Most know full well that I don't support strikes as a bargaining tool but I do have respect for someone who puts themselves out and have to sit firmly in Dingo's camp here. Even as a non-union man I recognise the hard work put in by local reps.

It wasn't THAT long ago that this site had CWU logos all over it, setting itself up as some kind of extension of the union itself. They soon vanished not long after and its getting less and less representative of anyone in any delivery office I know of. Whats left is a few die-hard militants with their fingers up their backsides who think they can take on the world from their computer screen and that the world owes them a living. I got news for you, the world has passed you by.

And no, the CWU is not in Royal Mail's pockets.

[Big Daz]

It is often said we are the union, the union is much much more than Dave and his merry men at HQ.

The question should be is are the CWU policy making structures suitable?

If not what should they be?

A debate on this would perfectley sensible and allow a policy making structure to develop that meets the wishes of the membership.

I would like to see far more rank and file involvement in policy making, at ther moment the rank and file input seems to be limited pretty much to voting on aggrements.

[fishtank]

This is hilarious. A minority of workers, and it IS a minority as most voted in favour of the agreement remember, recycle the same old "we've been done over big time by the CWU" when the union has gained much on your behalf. The same tired names spewing out the same guff that they were two years ago. In the meantime RMC seems to have run itself up some kind of self indulgent cul-de-sac with no one left to shout at except a union man that is doing his level best to keep you informed and dispel the myths..

It's a nice theory that the majority are in favour of this agreement NT but it doesn't hold water.
The majority either voted No or didn't vote at all so the best that could be said is that the majority are completely ambivalent....not the endorsement your looking for i'm afraid.

As for the union gaining so much on our behalf...that's a personal conclusion and one each member is entitled make on their own without the need for pages and pages of spin or "dispelling the myths" from either side....lies,damm lies etc.

As far as the site is concerned it is just an open discussion forum..not a CWU forum,it won't change the world and i don't think most of the posters expect it to... but i don't think anyone is blocked from posting whether they are pro the agreement,against it or couldn't give a toss.....so the only thing that really surprises me is just how quiet this majority of "deal supporters" really is.
Maybe the're above discussions with "tired old posters"....maybe they couldn't give a toss...or maybe the're just not there in the numbers you think....who knows?

I don't think that the CWU as an organisation are in Royal Mail's pockets either....but i think through mismanagement,secrecy clauses and an over-eagerness to deal at any cost they have left the membership with the impression that they are which could be just as costly.

[dvbuk55]

Hey NT - it's not just union members who have "benefited", no no - NON union members have benefited too - even people who don't deliver have benefited, even people who haven't been employed yet have benefited - but the people who actually deliver mail have lost, and if you're a part timer you've lost even more.

Bring on privatisation I say and lets weed out the non essential service people.

[DirtyHarry]

Dingo,
Your reply to me was three paragraphs long, so I will answer each paragraph in turn.

Paragraph one.
Sums me up, does it? Why, thanks, I am known as a realist, someone who sees shyte for what it is, shyte. Remember that tale from childhood, "The Emperor's new clothes"? Not for me the role of a fawning idiot who will claim that the Emperor's new suit is the best made, the best quality, they have ever seen, even though the doddery old fool is stark bollock naked.
As for extra workload to keep full-time jobs, what a load of crap. I, and a heck of a lot of other colleagues would make 20 minutes, if we're lucky, out of each working day. Royal Mail's senior management morons would then come along, axe my full-time duty, which is what it is, nothing more, nothing less, and reduce it to part-time? Is it any wonder that the public perception of the service we're supposed to provide is at it's lowest that I have ever known in all my time in the job?
My walk cannot, the sorting, the prep, the delivery, CANNOT, I repeat, CANNOT, be done in just 5hrs, no way. It is a full-time job, end of.

Paragraph two.
I don't know about the indoor element reducing, well, in fact, I do, it's not reducing at all. One thing I do know for certain is, the number of bodies, well, in my office anyway, available to do the indoor element has reduced. Last week, on average, we were on the IPS for at least 25 minutes more, and as long as 40 minutes on Thurs & Fri, than we would have been last year. Why? Because so many have been sacked, quit, retired, and have not been replaced. All I'm waiting for is one of those moments when sickness knocks an office for six, so many off sick, so many on AL, so few left to ensure the office is cleared of all due mail.
I just hope you post another message about increasing the workers workloads when that happens.

Paragraph three.
Royal Mail's senior management cretins said, "look here, CWU, we've already designed the workplan, and even though it spares no thought for any of the men &women who have the hardest, most physically enduring, outside whatever the weather, jobs in the whole business, we won't, I repeat, WON'T, rectify what is obviously an inexcusable slap in the face to the only people who ever generate good publicity, good public relations, for the business. Besides, it's our sly way of punishing what used to be a largely strike supporting workforce, ha, ha, ha."
And the CWU's response was, "oh, ok then, we'll let that one go."

2010 and beyond, was, is, a defeat for the workforce, a victory for the most antagonistic, workforce-hating, lying, duplicitous, snide, dishonest, overpaid, lumps of useless senior management shytebags it has ever been my misfortune to slave for.
Thanks again, CWU. For nothing, nothing at all.

[MinisterofCucumber]

This is hilarious. A minority of workers, and it IS a minority as most voted in favour of the agreement remember, recycle the same old "we've been done over big time by the CWU" when the union has gained much on your behalf. The same tired names spewing out the same guff that they were two years ago. In the meantime RMC seems to have run itself up some kind of self indulgent cul-de-sac with no one left to shout at except a union man that is doing his level best to keep you informed and dispel the myths. Most know full well that I don't support strikes as a bargaining tool but I do have respect for someone who puts themselves out and have to sit firmly in Dingo's camp here. Even as a non-union man I recognise the hard work put in by local reps...And no, the CWU is not in Royal Mail's pockets.

If Night Tonic is not a manager, he speaks remarkably like one.

"the union has gained much on your behalf"
"Most know full well that I don't support strikes as a bargaining tool "
"Even as a non-union man"

Night Tonic always pops up to support Dingo and Lovejoy when their arguments are weak. The fact that both Dingo and Lovejoy misspell the word situation as 'situration' has got to be more than a coincidence. Either they are the same person, indicating there ae not enough volunteers at HQ to do the 'dirty spin', or they are both using the same 'appeal to-the-common-man' spelling mistake generating software.

RMC is a great source of information for ordinary members and provides a platform for debate that is open to everyone, even managers.

[Martin Walsh]

TBT now lets deal with your points , not everyone was in reciept of either the ES1 or ES2 and a significant number was not working the times that those two attendances covered. Up to the much criticised pay and mod agreement those who lost their early shift due to work arriving later would only have recieved MTSF. The union under pay and mod were able to achieve an agreement when network 07/08 came in which meant most had later starts. The agreement spoke openly that this allowance would be subject to any pay simplifaction agreement which was contained within the agreement. Grandfather rights would only apply if such a deal could not be completed. So the union were open about that issue. Now in terms of some people losing out of door to door yes their was a miniority of postman and women who lost out due to the supplement but the average payment was £12 on door to door payments. Now the new deal is paid 52 weeks per year and will increase in line with basic pay increases. Door to Door will be automated within the next 18 months and then the average payment would have decreased competlely.

Now in terms of door to door helping to protect hours that will only come around once you have a revison as it will assist in your under the roof performance and your over the ground time and its the only work which is increasing.

In terms of gross hours or a further reduction in the working week if you go to labour research or income data services we work the least hours as we have paid meal reliefs. Now I know its popular to for 35 hour gross working weeks but that would amount to a 31 hour working week. Every 1 hour reduction is equivalent to 2.5 % on the basic pay now that would mean we would have had to achieve one of the biggest reductions in working hours of any industry in the UK. Now in terms of losing money well that was never going to be a goer with the membersip. If you said to the members you can have a 35 hour week but your pay will reduce then they would not support it.

Look IPS has reduced because mail centres now mech more work than they did 3 years ago and this will increase with ilsms and upgraded imps. Walk sequencing will then reduce your perp time by appoxmately 19 mins per thousand letters. But by far the most siginificant thing that wlak sequencing does is to split your mail arrival into two waves.

TBT you cannot change the workplan as the reality is that the second wave of your work is your distant mail which is posted say for example in Scotland for London say at 6 in the evening that still needs to go through the mail centre in Scotland and transported to the relevant mail centre in London to go thoriugh the inward mech and then that has to be transported to the MPU and then sequenced and sent to the office. Unless you stop the universal service for distant mail then you can only have two possible work plans for mech the one which Royal Mail have chosen two waves or all work to be processed in one wave once the distant mail has arrived meaning that all work arrives later. There is no other solution if Royal Mail insist on using the machines.

So the union argued and achieved less Saturdays and thats not insignificant when you consider prior to 2003 the vast majority of delivery postmen and women worked every Saturday.

[dvbuk55]

Glad to see the only increase in mail is D2D - must not have any packet traffic where dingo is, tracked items? I sometimes wonder where this neverland is - has there been a shift in the space time continuum and the forum dingo is posting on is somehow shifting to the real world?

As for asking the membership to take a pay reduction for fewer hours a non-starter.................................... they actually GOT a pay reduction for the same hours with more work........................ victory is pyrrhic. The 39 hour week? has anyone started it yet? Does anyone know what the hour less is going to consist of?

[Martin Walsh]

Glad to see the only increase in mail is D2D - must not have any packet traffic where dingo is, tracked items? I sometimes wonder where this neverland is - has there been a shift in the space time continuum and the forum dingo is posting on is somehow shifting to the real world?

As for asking the membership to take a pay reduction for fewer hours a non-starter.................................... they actually GOT a pay reduction for the same hours with more work........................ victory is pyrrhic. The 39 hour week? has anyone started it yet? Does anyone know what the hour less is going to consist of?

Packet traffic compared to last summer is down> Tracked items are up that is true. We also have a trial on evening deliveries due to start soon.

Now you say I live in neverland some of your posts you must only be let out under close supervison. The 39 hour week comes into effect after a sequencing revison and there will not be many which have been reduced as the revison timespan is 24 weeks plus some phase zero work.

I live and deal in the real world and I acutally help members on a dialy basis. Thats more than some of the posters on here who live to moan and they say I dont live in the real world.

[dvbuk55]

Glad to see the only increase in mail is D2D - must not have any packet traffic where dingo is, tracked items? I sometimes wonder where this neverland is - has there been a shift in the space time continuum and the forum dingo is posting on is somehow shifting to the real world?

As for asking the membership to take a pay reduction for fewer hours a non-starter.................................... they actually GOT a pay reduction for the same hours with more work........................ victory is pyrrhic. The 39 hour week? has anyone started it yet? Does anyone know what the hour less is going to consist of?

Packet traffic compared to last summer is down> Tracked items are up that is true. We also have a trial on evening deliveries due to start soon.

Now you say I live in neverland some of your posts you must only be let out under close supervison. The 39 hour week comes into effect after a sequencing revison and there will not be many which have been reduced as the revison timespan is 24 weeks plus some phase zero work.

I live and deal in the real world and I acutally help members on a dialy basis. Thats more than some of the posters on here who live to moan and they say I dont live in the real world.

Being the political creature you are dingo you answer those elements you wish to answer but conveniently ignore the nitty gritty details like the bigger workload for less money and what the hour less work will be arranged as. You are a hero of the union dingo without a shadow of a doubt. As for neverland? if you check your avatar details you are the one who says you're from neverland.

[POSTMAN]

Interesting thread and good debate,can i jump in to point out a few and off topic things...

It wasn't THAT long ago that this site had CWU logos all over it, setting itself up as some kind of extension of the union itself.

I've explained that to you already and you know i have,it's a bit low that you keep harking on about it.Interestingly i aggree with some of your other points.

The fact that both Dingo and Lovejoy misspell the word situation as 'situration' has got to be more than a coincidence.

Never noticed that Lovejoy did it but i can 100% assure you they are not the same person.

Now you say I live in neverland some of your posts you must only be let out under close supervison.

DV doesn't get let out,he escapes!

RMC is a great source of information for ordinary members and provides a platform for debate that is open to everyone, even managers.

Unfortunately despite the good amount coming on the site not enough say their view which is a shame,regardless of what way the swing.

[Martin Walsh]

Bigger workload for less money ? We are not on price work we on an hourly Dvbuk and providing the tools for the job are in place then we all have to get used to working our full hours.

I was in Royal Mail when we had traffic related bonus schemes and back then people actually embaced extra traffic. Now no one likes extra work except those who now know that chasing time as had its time.

You say people are doing more for less money but you know thats not true, Yes some lost out on the door to door but a lot more gained and now its being paid when on sick leave and annual leave and not everyone is get additonal door to door.

Anyone who has been in Royal Mail since 2003 will know that wages have increased in a big way , now I accept there is always room for improvement but for heaven sake no one can say that pay has not improved in those years.