Dingo please help!!!!!! OR ANYONE IN THE KNOW!

[Martin Walsh]

Fishtank the union is in a very strong postion as Higson , Haddon have both confrimed to Roger Poole and Peter Harwood from acas that this was going to be not budget driven but using the the tolls which were agreed. Now there will still be savings but I dont believe on a par they intially thought , now the other element of this is that the upper decile linked to weighted items per work hour is going to play a factor and I know some of your reps have got concerns as weighted items may not suit the Scottish landscape.

So will Royal Mail not be happy of course but how do they get out of it as they probably dont want a row as they want privitisation and the Government have made a very positve move on pensions which I cant reveal.

[disheartened]

So will Royal Mail not be happy of course but how do they get out of it as they probably dont want a row as they want privitisation and the Government have made a very positve move on pensions which I cant reveal.

When can you reveal then???????

[dvbuk55]

Well they would need to do something before privatisation to get their hands on the money already in the fund without giving any to profiteers - wonder what the privatised pension scheme will look like - if there is one.

[silverback]

"Alot of people on this site accept to easy what the DOM says if you dont agree use the IR framework or the engagment process to rasie this issue."

That is easy for you to say Dingo. I respect what you say on this site and I certainly dont think of you as public enemy no.1. However, as a delivery office rep
in the north, things are very different to what you portray. I.E. When I raise a dissagreement or a grievance and try and pursue it through the IR Framework, it is ignored by area reps, Doms, DSM`s, Div Reps. It is discussed without my involvement and then the area rep contacts me and basically says we have to "toe the line" and accept things as they are. When I have then tried to pass up to Headquarters, they pass it back to Branch and I get a ticking off for going above them. We are totally on our own. It seems the DSM`s leave the area /div reps alone as long as they keep their members (us workers) under control. Sorry for another negative post but that is the reality of the situation.

[dvbuk55]

"Alot of people on this site accept to easy what the DOM says if you dont agree use the IR framework or the engagment process to rasie this issue."

That is easy for you to say Dingo. I respect what you say on this site and I certainly dont think of you as public enemy no.1. However, as a delivery office rep
in the north, things are very different to what you portray. I.E. When I raise a dissagreement or a grievance and try and pursue it through the IR Framework, it is ignored by area reps, Doms, DSM`s, Div Reps. It is discussed without my involvement and then the area rep contacts me and basically says we have to "toe the line" and accept things as they are. When I have then tried to pass up to Headquarters, they pass it back to Branch and I get a ticking off for going above them. We are totally on our own. It seems the DSM`s leave the area /div reps alone as long as they keep their members (us workers) under control. Sorry for another negative post but that is the reality of the situation.

Now now silverback, don't go rocking the boat, you'll be getting a bad name - I see you have experienced the vicious circle that really does exist outside the golden avenues.

[BELIAL]

"Alot of people on this site accept to easy what the DOM says if you dont agree use the IR framework or the engagment process to rasie this issue."

That is easy for you to say Dingo. I respect what you say on this site and I certainly dont think of you as public enemy no.1. However, as a delivery office rep
in the north, things are very different to what you portray. I.E. When I raise a dissagreement or a grievance and try and pursue it through the IR Framework, it is ignored by area reps, Doms, DSM`s, Div Reps. It is discussed without my involvement and then the area rep contacts me and basically says we have to "toe the line" and accept things as they are. When I have then tried to pass up to Headquarters, they pass it back to Branch and I get a ticking off for going above them. We are totally on our own. It seems the DSM`s leave the area /div reps alone as long as they keep their members (us workers) under control. Sorry for another negative post but that is the reality of the situation.

Considering what you are going through I think you've been quite nice about it, and since my office is about the same ,I have no reason whatsoever to doubt your word. Talk about workers living in a bubble,if some people don't wake up soon their smugness and self satisfaction will turn round and bite their arse big time. Lost count of the times they were tipped the wink

[belle smith]

It always funny that I end up being public enemy number 1 on this site , yet very few on here know me and even more strange is that I would never accept the things some of you accept in your office and do nothing about it where it matters in your office but just come on here an moan that it is someone elses fault.

Well its not the union starts in the workplace , the union does not begin and end at 150 the Broadway like some of you like to think.

I'm extremly unhappy with ALL the senior union officials who recomended this deal which admitedly is not just you.
For the record Dingo most of us work in offices were most staff start early and work through their M/R, thats not you or the unions fault but it's not our fault either, the minute many of us saw this agreement we knew that we would be stuck between 'the runners' and this abiguas agreement that left us with less protection than we had before we went on strike.

Now Belle the performance standards was not agreeed within the agreement because a hell of lot of work has been done by the union and planners to adjust those things. Now if the perfromance standards had been agreed in the talks then those adjustments would not have been made.

Sorry in my opinion thats just not good enough. I'm fully aware that we had to agree to the use of these tools, but without the performance standards Thats an appaling error of judgement, they may have been 'adjusted' but not by much.

Now in terms of the union accepting that fratigue will be sorted by new equipment be that CDV or other then again that is not true. Currently there are two fatigue studies going on one is still to complete and that is whether a 3 0clock span or a longer delivery span will cause fatigue with CDVs , the other is a Scottish fatigiue study which is based on fatigue study for deliveries with stairs , which is based on a study to understand the physical demands of longer delivery spans with flats and tenement buildings with high number of steps to assist with delivery revisions.

The report is detailed and has joint involvement and of course Scotland does not have a monopoly on stairs or tenement buildings. This report is currently being discussed. But your wrong to think the union is simply accepting new equipment will remove fatigue.

I never said that the union had agreed to it, but the fact remains that we no longer have a limit on delivery spans and saying that fatuigue has to be taken into account is a very poor substitue.

Belle accusing me of arguing what Royal Mail are saying is a cheap shot and wrong. I have been involved in various workshops which have identified mistakes in both IWT and indeed Geo route which has led to adjustments or live testing to prove the facts of the case. What I dont mind stating thou is where there is a wrong assumption and clearly a lot on this site belive that geo route means you walk at 4 mph for 4 hours which is not true.

Well if people assume that then they are wrong but i don't belive what i said was either cheap or inaccurate, since we can't be standing still and walking at the same time

Alot of people on this site accept to easy what the DOM says if you dont agree use the IR framework or the engagment process to rasie this issue. There is now more detail on deliveries from CDVs , door to door into workload and about 38 other issues then ever before. No one can say that the union has not challenged or is not challenging all of the revison methods which Royal Mail want to use.

Now Fishtank you are right the IWT is not producing the savings that Royal Mail want. Why well the union has made it more accurate and that local offices have full involvement in ensuring all the local measurements are correct. In Scotland Royal Mail orginally believed they would make 15 million savings from the IWT alone that has now been down dialled to 7 million because of the unions involvement. Royal Mail have been understating indoor performance. So stop moaning and start making sure your IWT is correct because they may be understating your offices performance.

Now I am big enough and got broad shoulders to take your stick but for heavens sake why dont some of you get off your knees and start ensuring your office is strong and can deal with the revision process. The tools are there , the involvement is there, make sure you force Royal Mail to honour the agreement or raise it up and let the divisonal and National reps make Royal Mail abide by the agreement.

See Dingo thats what i think is cheap, i don't think many of us will get much out of this agreement, in my opinion because of the major short comings of the agreement. You seem to think the agreements fine and if anything goes wrong then thats done to the members at the bottom. I fundamentally disagree with you on this point.

[belle smith]

So will Royal Mail not be happy of course but how do they get out of it as they probably dont want a row as they want privitisation and the Government have made a very positve move on pensions which I cant reveal.

The goverment have to pay the pension they have no other option! Let me guess it's the same posative move that the last goverment made to retrospectivly change the scheme to a public sector pay as you go scheme. Well thats certainly whats in their best intrests!

Don't go patting yourselfs on the back to much.

[Night Tonic]

No, the government WON'T be paying for the pension. Where people get this idea of 'government money', even more so now. The bill would go to each and everyone in the country - including yourself. So in effect it'll be you paying the deficit off for years to come.

[fishtank]

No, the government WON'T be paying for the pension. Where people get this idea of 'government money', even more so now. The bill would go to each and everyone in the country - including yourself. So in effect it'll be you paying the deficit off for years to come.

Just add it to the tab for the banks....i don't think we'll notice it NT.

[Martin Walsh]

If any one believes that the CWU did not force the change in the Labour Governments decision then I suggust they read Peter Mandleson book. The extract is clear that Mandleson gave Gordon the way out and was angry with the CWU. Funny one thing which was revealed is that john Prescott was double agent on one hand he was saying to the CWU that he had Gordon"s ear and could help stop the sell off and then Mandleson states that he was in the end Mandleson only chief supporter of the sell off.

Now I must be carefull of what I say here but the Tories and Lib Dems see the sell off as a scource of a major cash injection , however there are a number of things which will frighten any protential buyer off , one is the CWU opposition , the second is the pension defcit and the 3rd is unfair compeitiion, and the fouth is that this agreement has to work to give any future buyer the confidence that management and the unions can introduce the full terms of the agreement without a strike or IR problems.

Now if you really wanted to get the right money for the sale then you have to resolve those 4 thing.

Lets just say that the Cons and Lib Dems are trying to do that and believe it or not have been a lot more open and listening then the Labour Government had been.

Lots of talking going on , and lots to come but the CWU have a plan a and a plan b and contrary to what some think on this site are a powerful force in any governments mind.

[BELIAL]

Oh god, you didn't buy it did you? Keep the phrase "salt mine" in mind

[BELIAL]

No, the government WON'T be paying for the pension. Where people get this idea of 'government money', even more so now. The bill would go to each and everyone in the country - including yourself. So in effect it'll be you paying the deficit off for years to come.

Spot on NT ,it was always 'our money' who the f**k have the 'government ' given it to.Investment bankers?

[dvbuk55]

Now if you really wanted to get the right money for the sale then you have to resolve those 4 thing.

Lets just say that the Cons and Lib Dems are trying to do that and believe it or not have been a lot more open and listening then the Labour Government had been.

Lots of talking going on , and lots to come but the CWU have a plan a and a plan b and contrary to what some think on this site are a powerful force in any governments mind.

I do have to admire the never say die attitude you show dingo.

Considering the amount of cash splashed out on Labour, it may well have been mindful to hold that in reserve for the coming fight, especially seeing as how the "opposition parties" as was, are doing more listening. As for being a force in any governments mind, I think it would be best to concentrate on this Government for the time being.

And to hear that there is a Plan A and a Plan B............ well that really is an improvement on the negotiations for the agreement where there was NO PLAN B.

Considering the result of the agreement just how difficult do you think it will be to resolve the the four issues if there is a little sweetener here and there?

[fishtank]

I'm confused....are we now pro-sale or anti-sale? No offence dingo but it's difficult to tell from your post.
Or are we just trying to gain what we can in the process?
And shouldn't the commercial loans be number 5.
If i was buying a stake in a company i would want to know exactly how the company plans to pay off £1.5billion of loans...to the very people i'm buying the company from.