What is "ghost overtime"?

[bandit650]

Not being funny we fill in all our 552's and we are just postie's ,managers don't sign anything until the next day so it would be very easy for a manager to deny that he/she gave you permission to do what ever believe you me it's happened in ours,hence the 4 new heads on the same handle.

[ramone]

How do we get rid of this practise or is it acceptable? Personally, I don't think its acceptable as I believe it causes division within the office and continues the culture of overtime as a form of "bribery" and "favouritism" - It is also a sign of mismanagement, as the structures of delivery, which are being "patch-worked" (like the roads!) rather than being planned to run smoothly. I also believe that if this practise was got rid of, many part timers would get extended contracted hours to cover the "ghost" overtime. What are the solutions? Do we report the managers for allowing it? If we do - who do we report it to? Or do we stay quiet, mind our own business and when the cuts come again say nothing while our duties and contracts are put under pressure while this "ghost" overtime continues for the "blue eyed boys"

[opgpat]

Ramone you are raising a good point in the wrong way. I can see you feel agrieved about this but don't slag off 'blue eyed boys' for making extra money when it's offered to them. I'm sure they rely on it if it's regular income for their family and mortgages. That's what we all go to work for.

The situation is created by management so lets start by blaming them. Yes it is arguablly a result of not having enough hours in the office and one way to fix it would be to increase PT'ers hours. Problem is RM are in denial about duty hours so they have 'set' hours in a DO (the on-paper shift allocation for all staff) but have found they can't get the job done in that allocated time. So instead of increasing hours in the office they put the work on the OT budget. It's a paper trick, an illuision and the hope is that one day the OT can be cut completely. They tried that in our office saying their OT budget had been removed.

As to what you can do about it you could raise an internal greivence comlplaint citing the fact that FT and PT staff are not being treated equally. If OT is not offered to everyone then that is probablly an example of unfair treatment. If OT is questioned for some and not others that is unfair and harrassment. Ghosting is not illegal as the manager can do what he wants with his budget. However the treatment of staff you mention could be against employment law and an internal complaint could change whats going on.

Also be aware there is a counter argument that is these guys are accepting an OT workload and obviously need payment for that. Why else would they do it? The fact they are finishing early is down to them rushing around and working unsafely fast and probablly door steeping packets left right and centre. Maybe you should be trying to get them to work at the correct rate then they would finish at the end of their 'OT shift', not before it's even begun. If they didn't want too work that late they would decline the OT and the managers would have to put it back into duties by increasing PTers hours or duty numbers.

That's essntially what the union want. Everyone to work their hours, do the job correctly and the extra undone OT work will create more jobs. See if local rep will suppport you on these grounds.

[ramone]

Thanks for the reply - Firstly I do not blame the "blue eyed boys" for taking what is offered to them - we all have mortgages, bills etc. I know where the blame for this situation lies - the management - both upper level and immediate level - Where I really struggle is the hypocrisy of RM managers wanting you to work your hours you are paid for, then because they have mismanaged a situation, then fall back onto "ghost overtime" to get them out of the mess they have created through poor planning. I am not talking about the one off situations when someone goes off sick but the structural planning of the office which relies on ghost overtime to make the office work. For example, I have seen RM promote H & S in our office (Lip service) yet turn a "blind eye" to every aspect to actual H & S procedures when it suits them. The "blue eyed boys" are the runners, fence jumpers and the Michael Schumacher's of the office - when there is a H & S inspection are they challenged ?- are they hell! Yet the manager will pick on some part timer, who has come in with the "wrong" shoes. My point is if the structural "ghost overtime" is taking out, will these "blue eyed boys" come back to the office at 2.30 to do the extra - I very much doubt it. While I appreciate that people have the right to work overtime but should they be getting rewarded extra for working within their time. I have worked in other industries and I have always been paid for the time I have worked. I am sure its been said before on these forums, as soon as we get a clocking in system the better for everyone not just the few.

[wolfie citizen smith]

Thanks for the reply - Firstly I do not blame the "blue eyed boys" for taking what is offered to them - we all have mortgages, bills etc. I know where the blame for this situation lies - the management - both upper level and immediate level - Where I really struggle is the hypocrisy of RM managers wanting you to work your hours you are paid for, then because they have mismanaged a situation, then fall back onto "ghost overtime" to get them out of the mess they have created through poor planning. I am not talking about the one off situations when someone goes off sick but the structural planning of the office which relies on ghost overtime to make the office work. For example, I have seen RM promote H & S in our office (Lip service) yet turn a "blind eye" to every aspect to actual H & S procedures when it suits them. The "blue eyed boys" are the runners, fence jumpers and the Michael Schumacher's of the office - when there is a H & S inspection are they challenged ?- are they hell! Yet the manager will pick on some part timer, who has come in with the "wrong" shoes. My point is if the structural "ghost overtime" is taking out, will these "blue eyed boys" come back to the office at 2.30 to do the extra - I very much doubt it. While I appreciate that people have the right to work overtime but should they be getting rewarded extra for working within their time. I have worked in other industries and I have always been paid for the time I have worked. I am sure its been said before on these forums, as soon as we get a clocking in system the better for everyone not just the few.

I nearly agree citizen with all you say, but I must draw a line to your quote "as soon as we get a clocking in system the better for everyone not just the few" however if your so grieved about the ghosting in the unit you work, then expose the unit DOM for what they are

[wolfie citizen smith]

What the heck has the IB got to do with it?

If a postie claim's..........say 8 hour's to do the extra the dim has giving him on overtime, and either the postie is being watched by I.B for reason's they already know about, or are just doing a normal check on the postie, then they go and investergate all aspect's of the postie including the overtime performed and found he was getting in the house or pouching off at 12.30pm and booking overtime until 8-9pm that night, thats called FRAUD, and also called spanish pratice's, i think, you know, the kinda of thing that royal mail want to get rid of, but all of there manager's nation wide do everyday.................................anyway the postie is claiming for something they shoudnt be claiming, then I.B would do an investergation in to how long and how much they have claimed, so they can reclaim the money's owd back to the company...................................you ever treid to get a dim write down and record that they are paying you extra, do it and watch them run a mile, they wouldnt touch the idea, as it would be them getting sacked and having to owe the company £...................................hope i got that right, please feel free to correct me

Time to test your hypothesis me thinks

[fishtank]

If a postie claim's..........say 8 hour's to do the extra the dim has giving him on overtime, and either the postie is being watched by I.B for reason's they already know about, or are just doing a normal check on the postie, then they go and investergate all aspect's of the postie including the overtime performed and found he was getting in the house or pouching off at 12.30pm and booking overtime until 8-9pm that night, thats called FRAUD, and also called spanish pratice's,

No it's not.
It might be considered a tad excessive but it's not fraud.
If a DOM asks you to do an extra half walk and offers you 3hrs for it he doesn't expect it to take 3hrs....it is an enhanced payment just like time and a half or double time in other industries.
It's a by product of a system that pays overtime in hours rather than an enhanced hourly rate...that's all.

[IloveMYredTROLLEY!]

Is there an in-house jargon phrase of "ghost pay rises?"

This is when a postie is contracted to 1400, but finish their round with lapsing and return to the depot around 1230, only to be able to walk out the door as soon as they have debriefed (endorsed failed items)!

While walks in the same depot are delivering right up to their contract time or beyond... Makes me livid, espcially when the "sub-DOM" then gives the Spanish Inquisition to those who announce they will need to "go over" in front of said manger!

If the managers did their job properly, they would prevent such "ghost pay rises" and paying out ligitimate "extended deliver" claims by assigning the flyers to help complete known pig walks. Think of the savings the depot would make and the extra profit the whole company would make (and following this through the less D2D could be justifiable to make enough profit)...

[wolfie citizen smith]

obtaining services by deception is fraud, therefore anyone ghosting overtime is a criminal and taking the opertunity from there fellow working colleagues of earning any potential legitimit overtime

[Terry Butcher]

Most overtime pay in my office is offered to those covering the spare walks, the managers are often only able to get them done on OT by offering 2 hours pay for an hours work. If posties go over on their normal walks they almost have to give evidence that they went over. In other words the only ones guilty of "ghost overtime" in my office are the managers.

[haddie]

i am being called to my doms on wednesday to be questioned why I claimed 45 mins on a walk. I def did it and have witnesses which he knows nothing about. yet he can give 2 hrs ghost o/t to others to get do cleared. I have evidence of this and am keeping my powder dry before wednesday.

[freelunch]

i am being called to my doms on wednesday to be questioned why I claimed 45 mins on a walk. I def did it and have witnesses which he knows nothing about. yet he can give 2 hrs ghost o/t to others to get do cleared. I have evidence of this and am keeping my powder dry before wednesday.

Be sure to tell him you're not happy to be questioned as it's not unreasonable to expect posties to be going over their time by 45 mins at this time of year. Tell him if he's not going to be paying pressure overtime you'll be cutting off whenever you judge the workload may take you over your finish time. He can mange how the surplus is delivered at someone else's expense, not yours'. You don't need to point out how he clears the office, he already knows.

[haddie]

he is in effect breaking the code by paying ghosting, but he is that dumb not to put 2+2 together.

[hampshireman]

When we used to get 2hrs on a sat to clear gas bills and still be home by 8.30am, those were the days boys

That late ????

My personal best was 23 and a half hours ot in one day..........

Darn... you beat me by a small margin.

Worked my day off (8 hrs) ... mail in from previous day (5 hrs) .. got asked after to take stuff out (about quarter of a walk) for 8 hrs

A good day.... but to be fair i was knackered at the end.

[redneck]

It's theft. Approved by management, as a result of their apparent inability to provide effective monitoring, for whatever reason.