Dingo please help!!!!!! OR ANYONE IN THE KNOW!

[dvbuk55]

Now jimmy was a one off but there are a number of people who have made their name within the CWU for orgainsing local or divisonal disputes both official and the other kind and got great agreements.

Now what is a good agreement I alway think its one where the majority of those voting in either an office , an area or nationally vote to support the agreement. That is democracy and it really dont matter if you hate the agreement or not if the members vote for it then its a good aggreement.

Well lets name names Dingo - I mean "made their name in the CWU" is hardly the same as a national figure renowned for trade unionism - still whatever floats your bloat.

Now here we go with the majority voted for it so it must be good - what utter crap that is and is the watchword of those who have failed to deliver the goods and then pontificate on how the agreement was voted in. It was steamrollered in with a circus performance worthy of Barnum and Bailey without giving every member the details. In fact the FULL details have still not been agreed nearly 12 months on.

[Martin Walsh]

Now I have heard everything , i refer to an agreement which was a free vote providing you were a member and on an agreement which your trade union achieved as a result of lengthy strike action and negotiations and i then get two repsectful posters who compare that with Adolf Hitler and Mugabe.

Look Hitler came to power as he caplitised on the fact Germany was not in a great place at that time and he ruthlessly exploited that fact by first setting up concerntration camps where Gypises , Gays , Trade union leaders , priests and Communists were taken. Once Germany starting expanding further afield they then target Jews and made it illegal to be a Jew and of course the concentration camps started outside Germany and they became death camps.

Now lets remember disgusting as it may be that Hitler even was awarded the New York Times man of the year in the mid 30s for his turnaround of Germany.

Now as someone who has visted two concentration camps I do find it disturbing to compare what Hitler did in his final solution plans and what the CWU asked its members in voting for an agreement on automation.

The compassion is simply not on par. The CWU never forced anyone to vote yes or indeed stopped people voting because they were different, yes some members choose not to exercise their right to vote but that is nothing knew and that is why the tories brought in the postal vote in the first place prior to that it was a vote in the workplace.

But if you want to argue whether the agreement was good or not find but lets keep compassions fair and both Hitler and Mugabe are not even close to being fair.

[dblad]

Royal Mails view of motivation to me is laughable, I started 7 years ago and gave up a job that was paying me then more than RM is paying me now, in fact I'm not motivated by money so they got that 1 wrong.

[dvbuk55]

Now I have heard everything , i refer to an agreement which was a free vote providing you were a member and on an agreement which your trade union achieved as a result of lengthy strike action and negotiations and i then get two repsectful posters who compare that with Adolf Hitler and Mugabe.

Look Hitler came to power as he caplitised on the fact Germany was not in a great place at that time and he ruthlessly exploited that fact by first setting up concerntration camps where Gypises , Gays , Trade union leaders , priests and Communists were taken. Once Germany starting expanding further afield they then target Jews and made it illegal to be a Jew and of course the concentration camps started outside Germany and they became death camps.

Now lets remember disgusting as it may be that Hitler even was awarded the New York Times man of the year in the mid 30s for his turnaround of Germany.

Now as someone who has visted two concentration camps I do find it disturbing to compare what Hitler did in his final solution plans and what the CWU asked its members in voting for an agreement on automation.

The compassion is simply not on par. The CWU never forced anyone to vote yes or indeed stopped people voting because they were different, yes some members choose not to exercise their right to vote but that is nothing knew and that is why the tories brought in the postal vote in the first place prior to that it was a vote in the workplace.

But if you want to argue whether the agreement was good or not find but lets keep compassions fair and both Hitler and Mugabe are not even close to being fair.

I didn't know they had concentration camps in London I wonder how Hitler and Mugabe treated part timers and if there was a winners and losers lottery there as well. As for not forcing people to vote yes, that's double speak - they weren't forced they were told it was the only choice ffs.

[fishtank]

The compassion is simply not on par. The CWU never forced anyone to vote yes or indeed stopped people voting because they were different, yes some members choose not to exercise their right to vote but that is nothing knew and that is why the tories brought in the postal vote in the first place prior to that it was a vote in the workplace.

Not even you can say it was a free and fair vote dingo with a Vote YES leaflet and DVD in with the ballot paper and the Dave&Bob roadshow going on in the background not to mention half the membership not even getting a look at said agreement.
If it WAS an election it would have been declared null and void so to use that as a measure of how good an agreement it is might be seen as laughable....if i found it funny.

[Martin Walsh]

Come on fishtank every national agreement on industrial action you get a letter , dvd or a leaflet to ask you to support the postal executive. Most Branch`s who have the backing of the members do their own ciruclar and the good branch`s who are in tune with their members ensure the members in their branch support the branch`s recommendation.

Are you saying just because you get a liberal or tory leaflet through or their at your polling station that it is not a fair vote ? Lets fact it all the doom and gloom posters on here before the ballot said the vote was going down , would they now be arguing or moaning about whether the vote was fair if it had ?

Get over it the vote was not even close. I did not like the way forward , PBS or the MTSF yet I accepted the vote when it went through and did not moan about whether it was fair because it is .

[fishtank]

Come on fishtank every national agreement on industrial action you get a letter , dvd or a leaflet to ask you to support the postal executive. Most Branch`s who have the backing of the members do their own ciruclar and the good branch`s who are in tune with their members ensure the members in their branch support the branch`s recommendation.

Are you saying just because you get a liberal or tory leaflet through or their at your polling station that it is not a fair vote ? Lets fact it all the doom and gloom posters on here before the ballot said the vote was going down , would they now be arguing or moaning about whether the vote was fair if it had ?

Get over it the vote was not even close. I did not like the way forward , PBS or the MTSF yet I accepted the vote when it went through and did not moan about whether it was fair because it is .

The point isn't whether i accept the result dingo...i do,i have no choice but i don't accept your evaluation of it based solely on the fact that it was accepted....time will tell if it's a good agreement and we haven't even started implementing it yet but i will tell you this dingo IWT is not producing the savings that Royal Mail want and senior management are getting nervous so in your own words....watch this space.

[dvbuk55]

Come on fishtank every national agreement on industrial action you get a letter , dvd or a leaflet to ask you to support the postal executive. Most Branch`s who have the backing of the members do their own ciruclar and the good branch`s who are in tune with their members ensure the members in their branch support the branch`s recommendation.

Are you saying just because you get a liberal or tory leaflet through or their at your polling station that it is not a fair vote ? Lets fact it all the doom and gloom posters on here before the ballot said the vote was going down , would they now be arguing or moaning about whether the vote was fair if it had ?

Get over it the vote was not even close. I did not like the way forward , PBS or the MTSF yet I accepted the vote when it went through and did not moan about whether it was fair because it is .

You accepted the PBS, MTSF because it was in your union position interest to do so, as with this agreement - you were the one who trumpeted this as the deal of the century.

[BELIAL]

Quite interesting. Funny when you start hoping there is a snake in the bed , cos the alternative is even more scary

[Wessex]

Now what is a good agreement I alway think its one where the majority of those voting in either an office , an area or nationally vote to support the agreement. That is democracy and it really dont matter if you hate the agreement or not if the members vote for it then its a good aggreement.

I wonder if Robert Mugabe uses the same system of measurement.

Sadly his 100 BSI probably means 100 brave souls interred.Shame on him and I suppose shame on us.

[belle smith]

The union can not have an issue with either the IWT or geo route, they are sound tools , in fact geo route is used world wide.

Don't have a problem with the tools per say, what i have a problem with is that we don't have the performance standards in the agreement

Now in terms of the IWT and 100 bsi , acas guidelines state that 75 BSI is the measure which should be expected by a trained worker, over 75 bsi should mean that some one is fully trained , has a full head of work and is motivated. Royal mails claims that the pay rise , supplement and attendances and shorter working week provides motivation.

I believe they are also saying that having new equipment is the begining and end of any problem with fitague. all those ambiguse protections "we won" are meaningless. Lots of people on here said so at the time.

Now in terms of speeds for walking they have been reduced and there are different speeds for different terain

Hardly....by 0.3 miles per hour.

equally there is a different speed for paths , standing at the door , attendance calls etc which means that no one has to walk at 4 miles per hour for their whole delivery round as all of these elements mean that the speed is reduced.

THAT WAS ALWAYS THE CASE! Which was why RM consistantly said it was an average of 2.4 MPH.
But let me be the first to congratulate you on now calculating the walk speed, the way RM do.

[Night Tonic]

Blimey, talk about self-centered. You all expect everyone to turn up on a picket line because the ballot supports it, but if the majority votes a deal though, thats not acceptable. Talk about tin-plated. If when Dingo is good enough to answer posts, many of which are plain dopey questions to be honest, you merely use it as an excuse to shout him down, what hope is there??? You don't like RM management, you're not impressed with government and think the CWU is in collusion. Zero friends left then. Some were misguided enough to believe that journalists were actually interested in what members had to say then shock oh shock, the press write terrible things. Then the ones that shouted the loudest on here about fighting to the very end seem to have vanished altogether leaving only the ones that presumably stand and whinge at the back of union meetings with their hands in their pockets but contribute sod all and go back to their lazy ways, muttering under their breath. We are the union - yeah right.

[dvbuk55]

Blimey, talk about self-centered. You all expect everyone to turn up on a picket line because the ballot supports it, but if the majority votes a deal though, thats not acceptable. Talk about tin-plated. If when Dingo is good enough to answer posts, many of which are plain dopey questions to be honest, you merely use it as an excuse to shout him down, what hope is there??? You don't like RM management, you're not impressed with government and think the CWU is in collusion. Zero friends left then. Some were misguided enough to believe that journalists were actually interested in what members had to say then shock oh shock, the press write terrible things. Then the ones that shouted the loudest on here about fighting to the very end seem to have vanished altogether leaving only the ones that presumably stand and whinge at the back of union meetings with their hands in their pockets but contribute sod all and go back to their lazy ways, muttering under their breath. We are the union - yeah right.

Yes thanks for that incisive post NT - that isn't the final goodbye wave by any chance

[Martin Walsh]

It always funny that I end up being public enemy number 1 on this site , yet very few on here know me and even more strange is that I would never accept the things some of you accept in your office and do nothing about it where it matters in your office but just come on here an moan that it is someone elses fault.

Well its not the union starts in the workplace , the union does not begin and end at 150 the Broadway like some of you like to think.

Now Belle the performance standards was not agreeed within the agreement because a hell of lot of work has been done by the union and planners to adjust those things. Now if the perfromance standards had been agreed in the talks then those adjustments would not have been made.

Now funny thing is that no one has posted on Geezer`s ltb thread which is very much what I reported. The union has been working to iron out the issues.

Now in terms of the union accepting that fratigue will be sorted by new equipment be that CDV or other then again that is not true. Currently there are two fatigue studies going on one is still to complete and that is whether a 3 0clock span or a longer delivery span will cause fatigue with CDVs , the other is a Scottish fatigiue study which is based on fatigue study for deliveries with stairs , which is based on a study to understand the physical demands of longer delivery spans with flats and tenement buildings with high number of steps to assist with delivery revisions.

The report is detailed and has joint involvement and of course Scotland does not have a monopoly on stairs or tenement buildings. This report is currently being discussed. But your wrong to think the union is simply accepting new equipment will remove fatigue.

Belle accusing me of arguing what Royal Mail are saying is a cheap shot and wrong. I have been involved in various workshops which have identified mistakes in both IWT and indeed Geo route which has led to adjustments or live testing to prove the facts of the case. What I dont mind stating thou is where there is a wrong assumption and clearly a lot on this site belive that geo route means you walk at 4 mph for 4 hours which is not true.

Alot of people on this site accept to easy what the DOM says if you dont agree use the IR framework or the engagment process to rasie this issue. There is now more detail on deliveries from CDVs , door to door into workload and about 38 other issues then ever before. No one can say that the union has not challenged or is not challenging all of the revison methods which Royal Mail want to use.

Now Fishtank you are right the IWT is not producing the savings that Royal Mail want. Why well the union has made it more accurate and that local offices have full involvement in ensuring all the local measurements are correct. In Scotland Royal Mail orginally believed they would make 15 million savings from the IWT alone that has now been down dialled to 7 million because of the unions involvement. Royal Mail have been understating indoor performance. So stop moaning and start making sure your IWT is correct because they may be understating your offices performance.

Now I am big enough and got broad shoulders to take your stick but for heavens sake why dont some of you get off your knees and start ensuring your office is strong and can deal with the revision process. The tools are there , the involvement is there, make sure you force Royal Mail to honour the agreement or raise it up and let the divisonal and National reps make Royal Mail abide by the agreement.

[fishtank]

Now Fishtank you are right the IWT is not producing the savings that Royal Mail want. Why well the union has made it more accurate and that local offices have full involvement in ensuring all the local measurements are correct. In Scotland Royal Mail orginally believed they would make 15 million savings from the IWT alone that has now been down dialled to 7 million because of the unions involvement. Royal Mail have been understating indoor performance.

The problem with that dingo...is that Higson still wants his £15million and their plan to get it is to sideline the IWT entirely and move back to using the capacity plan.....happy days up here,full union involvement...until they don't get what they want and then the toys get thrown out of the pram..