POSTMAN wrote:Ok peeps calm down,to the non reps in here,talk to your rep make sure they are up to speed,chances are a lot of you are nowhere near a revision yet anyway.
To the reps on here,make sure you're up to speed,contact your ADR if you feel out of your depth.
Those who are due or are having revisions now,same as above.
Handing out the preference forms today,ADR reckons we can make a start on the revison by early soon. Hopefully by early September. As soon as Ive a query off goes the email.
Stoke I have never accused postman and women of working slow or being lazy. I would like to think I have represented postman and women in the best way possible. Remember union reps are not their to win popularity contests , a lot of our job has always been to explain what is changing and sometimes what we need to strike on and fight against.
Now whether we like it or not and I dont every postal adminstration has lost mail , in every reccession we lose mail. Now we can justify argue that changes to the IPKs or that a mail centre does not measure the mail properly but even in the audits the union have done traffic in most streams have falled in the last 6 years. Not as much as Royal Mail have argued but they have fallen. Now I totally accept that whilst traffic has fallen in letters , packets and flats have increased and of course total hours have reduced meaning delivery postman are delivering more mail on their round then ever before. The reason is their are less of them , not because traffic is growing.
Now in terms of facing reality well lets look at this issue , we have a company which announced a 10.5 billion defcit which has been know since last years dispute but they did not legally have to declare it until July. We have a company which opened up to compeition years before the rest of Europe which has meant that compaines have cherry picked via downstream access and therefore mail centres have lost a lot of outward mail. The problem being is that Royal Mail have not been able to compete because they have an access price and a mail sort 2 price which they are not allowed to reduce meaning that down stream access is better value for customers as the difference between those margins maximises the profit.
The problem for Royal Mail when they get back into talks with Post Comm if they reduce mail sort 2 prices come companies will then go straight to by pass which means they will deliver in some towns on one or two days a week only to certain addresses which maximises profitablity.
Whether we like it or not mail centres are going to outward and one in ward pass which allows more mail to be meched and of course there are going to be ilsms and CSS machines which can sequence mail. Equally this means that the arrival of mail into a delivery changes fundementally , of course no one likes that and union argued against it, but Royal Mail have invested millions of public money into automation and were not prepared to leave the machines idle from 0600 in the morning or on Saturday mornings.
So instead of having almost all your work in an office at 6ish most offices will only have 60% of your work in but apart from packets ,flats and non rejects this will reduce your IPS and that sequencing will reduce your prep time not by a massive amount but by 19 mins for every thousand items. However your reamining 40% of work has to come in any time from 0700 to 10 00 which means that there will be pressure on whether you need 100% of your offices hours at 0600. Which is why the union insisted that door to door is included into workload in an attempt to plug a gap in workload.
The CWU is heavily criticised on this site but lets look at the agreement and its protectionfor both full time and part time jobs. Europe have better employment rights than the UK and yet TNT in Holland are getting rid of all full time jobs and reducing part time contract hours.
So the question is that do the CWU ingnore all those element and protect a status quo option and agree to no changes. Is that really the solution ?
dingo wrote:Stoke I have never accused postman and women of working slow or being lazy. I would like to think I have represented postman and women in the best way possible. Remember union reps are not their to win popularity contests , a lot of our job has always been to explain what is changing and sometimes what we need to strike on and fight against.
Now whether we like it or not and I dont every postal adminstration has lost mail , in every reccession we lose mail. Now we can justify argue that changes to the IPKs or that a mail centre does not measure the mail properly but even in the audits the union have done traffic in most streams have falled in the last 6 years. Not as much as Royal Mail have argued but they have fallen. Now I totally accept that whilst traffic has fallen in letters , packets and flats have increased and of course total hours have reduced meaning delivery postman are delivering more mail on their round then ever before. The reason is their are less of them , not because traffic is growing.
Now in terms of facing reality well lets look at this issue , we have a company which announced a 10.5 billion defcit which has been know since last years dispute but they did not legally have to declare it until July. We have a company which opened up to compeition years before the rest of Europe which has meant that compaines have cherry picked via downstream access and therefore mail centres have lost a lot of outward mail. The problem being is that Royal Mail have not been able to compete because they have an access price and a mail sort 2 price which they are not allowed to reduce meaning that down stream access is better value for customers as the difference between those margins maximises the profit.
The problem for Royal Mail when they get back into talks with Post Comm if they reduce mail sort 2 prices come companies will then go straight to by pass which means they will deliver in some towns on one or two days a week only to certain addresses which maximises profitablity.
Whether we like it or not mail centres are going to outward and one in ward pass which allows more mail to be meched and of course there are going to be ilsms and CSS machines which can sequence mail. Equally this means that the arrival of mail into a delivery changes fundementally , of course no one likes that and union argued against it, but Royal Mail have invested millions of public money into automation and were not prepared to leave the machines idle from 0600 in the morning or on Saturday mornings.
So instead of having almost all your work in an office at 6ish most offices will only have 60% of your work in but apart from packets ,flats and non rejects this will reduce your IPS and that sequencing will reduce your prep time not by a massive amount but by 19 mins for every thousand items. However your reamining 40% of work has to come in any time from 0700 to 10 00 which means that there will be pressure on whether you need 100% of your offices hours at 0600. Which is why the union insisted that door to door is included into workload in an attempt to plug a gap in workload.
The CWU is heavily criticised on this site but lets look at the agreement and its protectionfor both full time and part time jobs. Europe have better employment rights than the UK and yet TNT in Holland are getting rid of all full time jobs and reducing part time contract hours.
So the question is that do the CWU ingnore all those element and protect a status quo option and agree to no changes. Is that really the solution ?
CWU should NOT have let things get so out of hand in the first place.
Hi Dingo, let's not turn this into a personal slagging match! I think the original post was all about walking speeds which most of us know are unrealistic! And time and again, the Union seems to be agreeing with R/M about the decline in mail volumes and all these changes are based around that. Most of us on the shop floor do not see it this way, with the huge increase in the number of packets and signed fors we now deliver, more time is needed for delivery, not less.
And as you once again brought up the subject of job protection------full time jobs are being got rid of once again. usually through the back door, and I do not see them being filled by another full timer--they are either being left empty, or part timers taking their place. Even then it wouldn'd be so bad if part time meant at least 25 hours, but those hours are now as you know from 1 -30 odds. Anyway, enough spouting on----sadly, the Unions HAVE been letting us down badly over the years--time will tell what will happen with this latest set of 'agreements'
The problem for Royal Mail when they get back into talks with Post Comm if they reduce mail sort 2 prices come companies will then go straight to by pass which means they will deliver in some towns on one or two days a week only to certain addresses which maximises profitablity.
Is this the new bogeyman? Do as we say or someone else will be delivering your mail? Just as a matter of interest dingo, what do you base that statement on?
I could say "I'm going to start a limited delivery service in my town" - it wouldn't be true but it would be reported as fact, because SAYING it would be fact actually producing it would be as remote as finding rocking horse sh1t.
There are companies who deliver mail, they are limited to businesses, charge more than we do and are not a threat - they have had years to expand their business as have the big players BUT they haven't and they won't - we both know why.
dingo wrote:
Please remember the IWT or geo route is an indivdual performance measurement and can be adjusted by speaking to the indivdual performing the walk. It is purely a should take time measurement. Remember if your not at 100bsi then everything can be reduced to take account of this as well.
Why don't we cut to the chase and maybe someone can tell us what the exact procedure will be if you can't make your "should take" time.
Will this be a conduct issue....yes or no?...nice and simple please.
I must say,looking at the REAL issues here,it has sprung to mind what the hell is going on,and I now can see it.
I have met,(as part of the "new relationship"),with line managers and DOMS in the workshops. I have also had resource meetings with Line managers and DOMS. The amount of times the linos have said "we have been to briefings on the new deal,but we don't understand it". Even some DOMS don't understand it. OK,we will try to accept that excuse. But is it because they WON'T accept it?
If us lot cannot complete,why is it they WON'T accept that the walk is not "do-able"?
I can now see the problem.I know this won't happen "overnight",but the deal was accepted 3 months ago,why has the "penny not dropped"? I think they don't like the deal.I think their bosses don't like it. I think they have been told to ignore it where they can. Please do not convince me that line managers are acting on their own here. Be serious! Someone is backing them,this is quite clear looking at the various threads here.DOMS and Line managers DO NOT THINK ON THEIR OWN! That is quite clear.
I think if someone on here is attending the national meetings and they are reading this,perhaps a "comm" could be agreed in terms of local management.
"If there is any hint of managers not co-operating with the CWU or any evidence of bullying is found we will implement new managers who can work with the CWU"
We know they can "comm" this as they send emails of a similar nature to absorb,(and lots of it). What are they frightened of? If they want this deal to work,put their money where their mouth is!!!
Lincox wrote:I also believe this is an absolute load of tosh, and again instigated by people justifying their existence. There is no computer system in the world ,and that includes the human brain, that can narrow a walk down to a narrow band of time. There are just too many variables, many of which have been highlighted, and many more that have not, including how the delivery person is actually feeling on the day, particularly bearing in mind the abysmal sickness procedures and how these terrify individuals in to work, when in fact they should not be at work. They can set as many parameters as they want, but the one deciding factor is your daily contracted hours. Work to those and by all means if they play ball and are prepared to pay overtime on busy days,and you are prepared to do it, then fair enough. If they won,t and the works too much, then throw whats left back at them, and as managers it is their responsibility to make sure that mail is delivered. We are not paid enough to worry about whether all the mail gets delivered or not. Let them do the worrying. Have a worry free working life.
Couldn't agree more, absolutely spot on. Been to a number of meetings last couple of weeks and it's all basically number crunching! Frightening thing is that the managers are absolutely sold on all this rubbish, my view for what it is worth is that we can look at figures all day long, but I prefer to deal with reality, what is happening on the shop floor, out on the streets etc. Surely any sane person would realise that all the figures they have should only be used as a guide, but RM are treating the statistics as the be all and end all. someone once said, "There are three kind of lies, lies, damned lies and statistics" Wish somebody would tell RM and CWU!
Interesting point about Postmen/women being lazy and/or not working to their time, Crozier once said that we were (correct me if I'm wrong) 25% overpaid and 40% underworked. When you consider the latest load of rubbish called the Business transformation agreement has meant many delivery members have taken a substantial pay cut due to D2D going into workload, and are faced with delivery spans being increased to 4.5 or 5 hours and an ever increasing volume of D2D's, you have to wonder whether the NEC/PEC have accepted Crozier's comments as fact, it certainly seems so!
Big Daz wrote:
Ability or lack of to do the job is not a discplinary/conduct code issue.
No....but continued failure to reach agreed standards....leads where Daz?
I'm not talking about someone who might need a little "training" or "counselling".
I'm talking about someone who can't go as fast as pegasus says they should.
What happens then?...Will your DOM just accept it?
Big Daz wrote:
Ability or lack of to do the job is not a discplinary/conduct code issue.
No....but continued failure to reach agreed standards....leads where Daz?
I'm not talking about someone who might need a little "training" or "counselling".
I'm talking about someone who can't go as fast as pegasus says they should.
What happens then?...Will your DOM just accept it?
I must say I don't know what the answer is but I do know there are quite a number of delivery officers who are not the brightest, fastest or slimmest BUT have made deliveries day in and day out for years - they may take longer not be too flexible duty wise - but who is to say they are not capable of doing the job and more to the point exactly what criteria are they going to use to justify that decision.
I think we have displayed an ability to "change" since last year. We have collapsed duties,(ok this was down to exec action and the worst agreement ever.Pay & Mod 2007).
However the current management have no intention of changing.
However I wonder what would happen if absorption was to stop tomorrow? We all know we work at 100 BSi on a Saturday! Also to be honest we work at 100 BSi everyday to make time,(well some anyway).
More importantly THEY know it too......
Hi Dingo, let's not turn this into a personal slagging match! I think the original post was all about walking speeds which most of us know are unrealistic! And time and again, the Union seems to be agreeing with R/M about the decline in mail volumes and all these changes are based around that. Most of us on the shop floor do not see it this way, with the huge increase in the number of packets and signed fors we now deliver, more time is needed for delivery, not less.