how much sorting and absorbing do you do?

[fishtank]

Now Fishtank there are pro and cons with the model week being low and having to flex up. The down side is that you will have a starting based on less hours sp protentially using the various revison tools you will have less hours at the starting point , but the plus side is that you will have little or no aborsbtion , and you will be able to maxmise full time jobs within your starting base rather than allowing management to continue to laspe duties going forward and put more pressure on full time jobs. Equally you will have to have arrangements which ensure in the heavy periods that robust measures are in place including extra hours when traffic increases in the same way a lot of offices do now for christmas etc.

Dingo,no offence intended but how long have you been in this job.I grew out of fairy stories a long time ago.
To have a base starting point of lower than your average is suicidal....all that happens in that situation is members will be pressured to take up the slack.
What if an office doesn't want to maximise full-time jobs?,what if they feel the price is too high?,Which model week will they be allowed to use?
If the only answer to absorbtion/lapsing is to strip each office back to less than the bare bones then we are truly at the endgame....do me a favour switch of the lights on the way out

[Geezer]

Dingo
I'm not trying to put a downer on what your saying, but if you truly believe that they will put more hours in like as you say they do at Christmas then your sorely misguided.
We had massive failures last Christmas because we didn't have enough staff and no extra hours put it, so if you think the DSM's in my area will go along with that your wrong.
If CWU HQ want any of this to work they need to put in place systems that will weed out rouge DSM's and Managers but i don't see anything like that happening, not in my area anyway.
It's easy to say this will happen, and they will do this but I'm sorry to say that on the ground it's just the Same Old Same Old ! They talk the Talk but Refuse to Walk the Walk.

[dvbuk55]

Dvbuk it will only mean that if an office allows that to happen.

Even then if you agree a revison say using a model week of say 50 000 and you agree the indoor workload tool and geo route and say you have set the tool at 70 or 80 or 90 or even an 100 how are the weeks when you may have a traffic increase of up to 20%, will you be able to compete your delivery without extra hours within the unit ? The DPT will evenutally be used as a weekly resoucing tool and the DPT is very similar to the IWT so will caluclate what traffic and hours you will be used including door to door.

I have said it many times Dingo, your perception of reality and reality are worlds apart as is so evident by thinking that using the lowest denominator for the base figure is a good thing.

I still have this idea that the reason behind some of the less palatable aspects of this agreement is based entirely on the false premise that everywhere is the same and quite obviously they are not.

Extra hours is not the object of the exercise dingo, and you and your union seem to be obsessed with the idea that you are going to save full time jobs - well stop press - many many areas are at 50/50 and there is absolutely NO chance that those hours are going to be increased - many of those areas are stretched NOW and using the lowest denominator is going to make matters worse. There must be a concerted effort to lower the working week not by an hour at some time in the future but by 5 hours built into the current revisions NOW, and that is the way to preserve jobs and a strong union would have used the strike last year to press home what was obvious.

[Martin Walsh]

Fishtank I have been in the job 27 years and I can remember when we used to set the duties based on the miniumn traffic figure and we had a bonus for traffic increases so well aware of the two systems.

Look if you scroll though this site over the last two years or you go into delivery units what is the thing most moaned about is absorbtion and by continuing to set traffic at the peak day of an aveage week then you will continue to have absorbtion and you continue to have problems with lasping and increase in part time duties.

Now I understand that some areas have a problem with getting the right hours for xmas and that will need to be sorted but equally there are a significant number who do get addtional hours. But the difference here is that you are setting your hours in an office based on the IWT , Geo route , delivery span indicator based a lower week either weeks 41-44 January or weeks 11-17 June /July. Now yes some managers may try and bully people to absorb but remember the tools within the revision process and the after revision process should correct that.

It is beyond me that if you staff an office based on 50 000 traffic figure and you then in Autumn pressure get 75000 that you can deliver that and at the moment Royal Mail are getting pulled through the coals for their quality. ( watch this space. )

Yes some mangers will always try and get more but they would do that if you staff the traffic at a peak day of an average week or even the peak day of the peak week. It is for areas and divisons and Headquaters to ensure that this does not happen.

I can only speak for London and we have challenged management over this issue and now have an agreed way forward where hours using either the DPT or IWT will be adjusted on higher traffic weeks based on the weekly resoucing meetings.

Now Dvbuk I dont know where you have been but I went to over 100 different offices last year and people do care about having a full time job. It is not just in London either every division had that as one of the most important issues within last years dispute.

The problem dealing with the IWT on the average week is that it will allow management to introduce more part timers as overall producitvity will mean that on lower traffic weeks you peformance drops drramatically and if needs be they can then flex the part timers hours up.

Now instead of saying I should get in the real world what are your answers because the current system allows management to continue to absorb and as mech increases this will allow the IWT to insist on more and more part timers

[POSTMAN]

Confused as f**k here which aint hard for me but...
Let's say my office, doing their bits week in week out,peak traffic comes and we get hammered,now 90+% of my guys don't want extra hrs,what happens then,who does the 'peak' stuff?

[fishtank]

Confused as f**k here which aint hard for me but...
Let's say my office, doing their bits week in week out,peak traffic comes and we get hammered,now 90+% of my guys don't want extra hrs,what happens then,who does the 'peak' stuff?

Well i'm as confused as f**k as well POSTMAN because you're spot on...the whole premise of this strategy relies on a unit being willing AND able to flex up at what might be a few days notice...
And the other thing i don't get is if you staff an office with hours based on your lowest traffic figures won't you need.....less staff. ..or am i really thick and missing something

[Martin Walsh]

Postman its a problem either way. Of course Royal Mail are stating on the old way why are we paying say 30 part timers in an office when we the workload only justifies that number for about half the number of weeks which the model week states. This is what staffing work at the peak day of an average week.

You will know how differcult it is to ensure performance is maintained when traffic reduces on a Tuesday but you keep the same amount of hours then performance dips across the whole week. So if you have to maintained say 70BSI across the whole week then you have to recognise on a tuesday your working at say 60 BSi and on a Friday you have to staff the office at 80BSI.

If we maintain staffing levels at the peak day of an average week then we are going to have times of the year when clearly management are going to laspe a lot and are going to propose part timers to replace full times as they can always up grade a part timers hours during peak traffic periods.

Now if you staff on the lowest traffic period , yes you do start with less hours in your base but across the year you will have possibly the same hours as lasping wont be an option etc. Now in terms of how you staff this then clearly the method change from walk sequencing will have an effect as will the direct selections from imps or ilsms. However it may well be that your office could not sustain 4 days the whole year but during these peak periods it could so an office can have 4 day weeks in the peak periods. There are many options including a few which may be contreversial such as maintianing full time jobs by annualised hours mantaining your full time wage across the year.

Believe me when you understand how walk sequencing , geo route , the duty modeller , the iWT , the delivery span indicator and other revision processes will effect your office then you may look at things differently.

The union is scoping both options but you know from this site that absorbtion is hated and if you continue to put in revisons based on an average traffic period then you will see absorbtion grow.

[dvbuk55]

The whole premise is wrong.

You only speak for London BUT you give the impression that what you see/hear is a national stance and that is totally wrong.

Full time work may well be the holy grail BUT the reality is much different - if you use the lowest common denominator then the hours required only justifies a part time position and that part timer is then expected to flex to full time hours as and when necessary IT DOES NOT MEAN A FULL TIME JOB and it will never be a full time job. This will be more than highlighted when the WSMs are in place and you will have excess hours from indoor work to outdoor work.

You must reduce the working week substantially to enable outdoor work to be adjusted to a reasonable level. You cannot just keep adding hours to a duty dingo when it is outdoor work and for the hundredth time you simply do not understand that issue.

[fishtank]

There are many options including a few which may be contreversial such as maintianing full time jobs by annualised hours mantaining your full time wage across the year.

I didn't see banking hours in the agreement dingo or is this one of the less palatable solutions being dragged over from P&M 2007....perhaps more a threat than a solution though eh dingo.
I would love to see the union official who takes banking hours to the membership.....I've always wondered what hung,drawn and quartered really entailed.

[dvbuk55]

I'd love to see annualised hours. You would get the management have people working 60 hours a week without overtime with the promise of free time later, soooooooo you wouldn't need as many people and you certainly wouldn't need full time contracts because part time contracts would be flexed as and when necessary.

Hows this for a scenario for annualised hours:

Monday - prep 2 duties deliver 1 @ 4.15 CDV plus meal break etc 9 hours
Tues - IPS, prep 1 duty sent home no work 3 hours

Average hours per diem 6

Anyone fancy annualised hours?

Maybe we should go back to the old dock gates days and stand outside to see if there is any work that day.

I'm just glad my working life is coming to an end.

[DirtyHarry]

I'd love to see annualised hours. You would get the management have people working 60 hours a week without overtime with the promise of free time later, soooooooo you wouldn't need as many people and you certainly wouldn't need full time contracts because part time contracts would be flexed as and when necessary.

Hows this for a scenario for annualised hours:

Monday - prep 2 duties deliver 1 @ 4.15 CDV plus meal break etc 9 hours
Tues - IPS, prep 1 duty sent home no work 3 hours

Average hours per diem 6

Anyone fancy annualised hours?

Maybe we should go back to the old dock gates days and stand outside to see if there is any work that day.

I'm just glad my working life is coming to an end.

I wish mine were. I've got to try and endure these buffoons in both the CWU and RM for another 20 odd years!

[POSTMAN]

Postman its a problem either way. Of course Royal Mail are stating on the old way why are we paying say 30 part timers in an office when we the workload only justifies that number for about half the number of weeks which the model week states. This is what staffing work at the peak day of an average week.

You will know how differcult it is to ensure performance is maintained when traffic reduces on a Tuesday but you keep the same amount of hours then performance dips across the whole week. So if you have to maintained say 70BSI across the whole week then you have to recognise on a tuesday your working at say 60 BSi and on a Friday you have to staff the office at 80BSI.

If we maintain staffing levels at the peak day of an average week then we are going to have times of the year when clearly management are going to laspe a lot and are going to propose part timers to replace full times as they can always up grade a part timers hours during peak traffic periods.

Now if you staff on the lowest traffic period , yes you do start with less hours in your base but across the year you will have possibly the same hours as lasping wont be an option etc. Now in terms of how you staff this then clearly the method change from walk sequencing will have an effect as will the direct selections from imps or ilsms. However it may well be that your office could not sustain 4 days the whole year but during these peak periods it could so an office can have 4 day weeks in the peak periods. There are many options including a few which may be contreversial such as maintianing full time jobs by annualised hours mantaining your full time wage across the year.

Believe me when you understand how walk sequencing , geo route , the duty modeller , the iWT , the delivery span indicator and other revision processes will effect your office then you may look at things differently.

The union is scoping both options but you know from this site that absorbtion is hated and if you continue to put in revisons based on an average traffic period then you will see absorbtion grow.

Bollox to all that,that's not personally aimed at you but whoever thought up that s**t!
4 day weeks in peak periods only,someones having a laugh,union scoping both options,give me absorption any day.
I'll try not to jump the gun but could be trouble in London if we get screwed with this s**t.

[the_slave_has-landed]

many in our office absorb(asholes- runners-panickers etc)- i dont, my boss comes up every day and says, overtime today on your absorbtion bit, i say - aye, and hammer em for 1 hour plus, thank you.More and more people are refusing to do it now, more are claiming overtime, its the only way to make them stop it.

There motto is, the more youdo, the more they expect you to do.

My motto is, do as little work as you can , for as much money as you can!

I don’t absorb every day only where time allows. SO far they have not argued and i refuse to do OT cos it suits me. What disciplinary action can they take if you refuse, any idea?

[the_slave_has-landed]

If everybody did there equal share, the workers would not be run ragged while the shirkers continue to toss it
off, i sincerely hope one day you wake up & contribute before it's too late

And who exactly judges that stevie.....you?
I here this whining all the time...."I've sorted 10 trays he's only sorted 8 boss"..."he was in the toilet for 6 mins boss"..."He was finished 8mins before me boss"..."His duty is smaller than mine boss"...it really is pathetic.
If you do your job,work your hours what does it matter to you how slow someone else is?
There are too many pseudo-managers in Royal Mail for my taste.

Stunning and very true words.

We have many at our place who think they are the boss. Most have long Brown stained tounges and worn out areas on the trousers (knee department) and its these do gooders that are the cause of this mess we are in. I am alright jack till in affects them then they whine and whine. I dont want to work for Free and have enough of rich fat bosses taking away my perks gained over 38 years of work whilst they cream off a penison and bonus for failure. They wont be happy till they have one postperson doing 30 posties work and all for a min wage.

We are all differant and have different levels of fitness, stamia , weight, motivation, age etc so why should a computer program or brown nosing "colleagues" tell us we are all the same. We are not

[the_slave_has-landed]

The more people that come in early and don't take breaks and take their door to doors home putting them together or putting them together after their duty are crazy, this will give these people the time to absorb. quite frankly I came in at my right time put my door to doors together after my redirections and killing off was done, then told my manager I will NOT be back in time to absorb.
At 2.05 pm I arrive back at my office on Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday to hear the two lads moaning next to my frame about this is out of order, we are getting out later and later and still have to absorb. I tell them you brought it on yourself coming in early, bagging up before anyone else and leaving the office first. Please don't talk to me about it. but they will do the same tomorrow again. and so will I by not doing the absorption. I can do absorption IF the door to doors are scrapped, (fat chance that will be) or the door to doors I can do if the absorption is scrapped. the ball is in Royal Mails court. but both will NOT happen
The more people that come in early and race out doing the absorption are making it work, when are you ever going to learn ...

Same at out place. Only three of us get in on time and do it properly. Even after the changes most are still giving free work and whinging later. OR you get the odd tough guy (balding, overweight, shouts, and swears, tattoos, bully etc) who is going to tell the boss this and that and then does the opposite like a mouse. Sound familiar?