Are we now fighting the CWU as well as RM?

[POSTMAN]

While a lot of you seem to leaning towards your local management's mantra that it's rosy down here,there are many other offices around the country that have not rolled over!
.

First of all i didn't say all was rosy in London and i certainly don't lean to any management mantra.
My point was that "strength" can sometimes be aided by circumstances outside anybodys control.
London has such a high full-time ratio mainly because it is difficult to recruit and retain part-time staff and with a high full-time ratio comes statistically higher union membership.Geographically you are compact and that allows for easier organisation and having HQ on your doorstep means communication will be faster and more regular.
These are all circumstances which are outwith your control and nothing to do with growing a pair OR everything being rosy.

Your second point about offices around the country not having rolled over is true,i know i'm in one but it's not a flag i need to wave continually in order to try and defend a poor and ambiguos deal that's primary function was to keep HQs gravy train rolling for another few years....this is not aimed at you in particular POSTMAN.

Sorry,you will never change my mind about the HQ on our doorstep thing.
Some rolled over and others didn't,you included,so any deal is not flawed,those who use the deal is the flaw.
P&M wasn't the worst deal a union negotiated,it's how you use it,the same with this one.

This one is bigger than P&M,the way we will have to work with this one is a lot worse than working to your time like P&M.

My office got a good deal with P&M,with the 2010 one i am not happy at all,especialy with CDV's,but it wont be as bad as some on here because we will use it to our advantage.
But you will as well and so will many others,but unfortunately,there's the others.....

[Martin Walsh]

Judgee you make a claim that the union did not do anything years ago . Why dont you do some research as the union did make various moves to sort issues out.

For example back in the 80s when the industry was under the monoplies and merger commission the union entered into an agreement namely Improved working methods which was basically a bonus scheme where offices made savings and shared money amongst the remaining staff.

That agreement was by far the most controversial that the union has ever made. It made this agreement look like a picnic compared to then. London was split and there was warfare punch ups etc as was the majority of the UK.

Some opposed it and would not go into the scheme and other offices made a fortune from it and some were on an extra £100 per week and more at Xmas.

This made Royal Mail a lot of savings but in the end led to an agreement called Safeguarding the mail"s business SFMB. Which brought in some automation and yes part timers.

We attempted to get Royal Mail to continue to pay into the pension fund but the law was such the Government would rather take money via the EFL ( external finance fund )

Royal Mail then in the 80s wanted to bring in the regional pay bargaining via a payment called DRAS ( Differcult recuirtment area supplement ) this union refused it and you know who was out the Longest 3 weeks all out it was us in London who stood to gain the most.

London did so because we were supporting national pay bargaining.

So it is easy to make comments why didn't the union do something years ago . We did but the crisis we suffered from dsa , world wide falling mail volumes , Postcomm and the pension deficit is very difficult and that is why this agreement is the only way forward.

There is plenty of noise around traffic and I have seen the Birmingham audit and some others and whilst traffic is not falling as fast as Royal Mail believe even those audits show that traffic is dropping in some streams and mech is increasing.

Dvbuk you seem so bitter and are very misguided. Your desire to blame London is shameful and wrong. its akin to the citizens of pearl harbour blaming the rest of america for the fact that japan attacked them.

[fishtank]

But you will as well and so will many others,but unfortunately,there's the others.....

The others....pay the same subs as us.
If offices get rolled over because they can't be arsed fighting then fair enough but there are others who have been isolated through poor representation at local,area AND divisional level and because this deal is so wooly and leaves almost everything at the feet of local reps and management they will also get sh*t on.
New Relationship or not if RM get their way in one area it will spread like cancer through the whole business.

[dvbuk55]

Dvbuk you seem so bitter and are very misguided. Your desire to blame London is shameful and wrong. its akin to the citizens of pearl harbour blaming the rest of america for the fact that japan attacked them.

I'm not misguided dingo, those following the RM/CWU diktat are misguided. As for blaming London - well if the cap fits wear it, how many times do we have to hear about "Londons special circumstances". Lets not try to fool people in believing that London is like everywhere else, it isn't.

As for this being the only deal - that's been done to death. What should be said is this is the only deal this set of negotiators could get. Now how about the "withdrawn" document on D2D only to appear two weeks later exactly the same as a negotiated settlement.

[pickaname]

[quote="dvbuk55"}Now how about the "withdrawn" document on D2D only to appear two weeks later exactly the same as a negotiated settlement.[/quote][/quote]

Indeed...very sinister. The negotiation minutes should be made public so we can see exactly what was said and by whom.

If the CWU asked you to jump off a cliff, would you?

Its a sad fact that there is now a growing movement within the RM workforce that is now wary of both the CWU and RM's tactics. Could be the start of an alternative union? Who knows...

Its no good trying to deny this, Dingo. That kind of head in the sand attitude is the very reason you and your PEC cronies got the 2010 agreement so very wrong.

Youre out of touch and out of sync. This is one reason why our local rep resigned - he wasnt willing to be held responsible for implementing an agreement that was so bad for the office.

Now we have no rep we have to fend for ourselves. No one in my office is willing to represent the CWU as they feel so betrayed.

This is a fact.

[POSTMAN]

[quote="dvbuk55"}Now how about the "withdrawn" document on D2D only to appear two weeks later exactly the same as a negotiated settlement.

Indeed...very sinister. The negotiation minutes should be made public so we can see exactly what was said and by whom.

If the CWU asked you to jump off a cliff, would you?

Its a sad fact that there is now a growing movement within the RM workforce that is now wary of both the CWU and RM's tactics. Could be the start of an alternative union? Who knows...

Its no good trying to deny this, Dingo. That kind of head in the sand attitude is the very reason you and your PEC cronies got the 2010 agreement so very wrong.

Youre out of touch and out of sync. This is one reason why our local rep resigned - he wasnt willing to be held responsible for implementing an agreement that was so bad for the office.

Now we have no rep we have to fend for ourselves. No one in my office is willing to represent the CWU as they feel so betrayed.

This is a fact.

So your rep has gone and you're going to get steam rolled,with your rep there it's not going to happen.
You're doing yourselves over.

[andy2007]

Dvbuk you seem so bitter and are very misguided. Your desire to blame London is shameful and wrong. its akin to the citizens of pearl harbour blaming the rest of america for the fact that japan attacked them.

I'm not misguided dingo, those following the RM/CWU diktat are misguided. As for blaming London - well if the cap fits wear it, how many times do we have to hear about "Londons special circumstances". Lets not try to fool people in believing that London is like everywhere else, it isn't.

As for this being the only deal - that's been done to death. What should be said is this is the only deal this set of negotiators could get. Now how about the "withdrawn" document on D2D only to appear two weeks later exactly the same as a negotiated settlement.

So other than the extra suppliment (can't remember what it's called) to cover the higher cost of living in London. What other special circumstances do they have?

Don't you realise, that RM are going out of their way to alienate us from London?
Let's face it: It's true that they are better placed geographically, because it's such a large built up area, and so close to HQ. If we distance ourselves from them, we'll greatly weaken ourselves. Is that what you want?
It's certainly what RM want.

There's so much propoganda about at the moment, about how London Posties have such wonderful T&Cs, while we suffer. But what evidence is there to back that up?
WTLLs, perhaps the Press too. Come on. Think about it! It's just propoganda. An ancient tactic, which is as effective today, as it ever was. Perhaps more so.

Although I do agree with you about the agreement. But that was a combination of the negotiating team, HQ, and people not reading the agreement properly before they voted. I doubt that you'll find very many people who admit to voting for it, and still think it's a good deal. Although I know that there are a few who do. It always amazes me, how quick some people are to vote for an agreement, because of a lump sum payment, without considering the long term consequences.

[POSTMAN]

But you will as well and so will many others,but unfortunately,there's the others.....

The others....pay the same subs as us.
If offices get rolled over because they can't be arsed fighting then fair enough but there are others who have been isolated through poor representation at local,area AND divisional level and because this deal is so wooly and leaves almost everything at the feet of local reps and management they will also get sh*t on.
New Relationship or not if RM get their way in one area it will spread like cancer through the whole business.

Tbf fish we're going round in circles,and i don't know the answer to it all,but once bitten twice shy,are some people out there really that dumb?

[POSTMAN]

So other than the extra suppliment (can't remember what it's called) to cover the higher cost of living in London.

London weighting,sure to kick off another heated discussion no doubt.

[andy2007]

True. But considering that it's a fact that house/flat prices, are vastly inflated in London. I don't see what the problem is with you getting it. When one of my relatives moved to London. He only paid slightly less for his 2 bedroom flat (walking distance from the Centre of London), than my Parents paid for a four bedroom detatched house up North.

The point I was trying to make. Is that with the exception of that payment. I'm not aware of any other perks that London Posties get, that others aren't entitled to. Despite the propoganda that some seem to be taken in by.

[dvbuk55]

Or the reality that others choose to ignore.

Now Andy can I just draw your attention to the inception of the interim agrrement where London had it's own ACAS rep to oversee the peculiar circumstances surrounding London - now I don't know what they were but it certainly occurred.

[Big Daz]

All areas were entitled to extra help, the senior reps for other areas obvisouly did not want extra help from ACAS.

It was in the interim agreement, for all areas to take advantage of if they so wished to do so, London did.

Well done to CWU London for their determination to resolve the issues in London

If you think the senior reps for your area/division should have done what London did then fair enough but that dosent mean London had special deals or any other term you may have used since last year, just that you patch did not get the level of support you desired it to have, for which your gripes should be directed at you area/divisional reps.

[dvbuk55]

All areas were entitled to extra help, the senior reps for other areas obvisouly did not want extra help from ACAS.

It was in the interim agreement, for all areas to take advantage of if they so wished to do so, London did.

Well done to CWU London for their determination to resolve the issues in London

If you think the senior reps for your area/division should have done what London did then fair enough but that dosent mean London had special deals or any other term you may have used since last year, just that you patch did not get the level of support you desired it to have, for which your gripes should be directed at you area/divisional reps.

Erm................no not quite - I would actually quote the line from dingo - if I could be bothered to trawl the site - but it went something like Royal Mail London/CWU London interim agreement ............etc as though they were a special case.

[andy2007]

Yes, I remember that too. But as far as I'm aware, they didn't get anything more than we did in the end. And if I remember rightly, didn't they have some extra problems specific to their area at the time?
Perhaps that's what they were getting sorted by ACAS. I just don't know.

[pickaname]

[quote="dvbuk55"}Now how about the "withdrawn" document on D2D only to appear two weeks later exactly the same as a negotiated settlement.

Indeed...very sinister. The negotiation minutes should be made public so we can see exactly what was said and by whom.

If the CWU asked you to jump off a cliff, would you?

Its a sad fact that there is now a growing movement within the RM workforce that is now wary of both the CWU and RM's tactics. Could be the start of an alternative union? Who knows...

Its no good trying to deny this, Dingo. That kind of head in the sand attitude is the very reason you and your PEC cronies got the 2010 agreement so very wrong.

Youre out of touch and out of sync. This is one reason why our local rep resigned - he wasnt willing to be held responsible for implementing an agreement that was so bad for the office.

Now we have no rep we have to fend for ourselves. No one in my office is willing to represent the CWU as they feel so betrayed.

This is a fact.

So your rep has gone and you're going to get steam rolled,with your rep there it's not going to happen.
You're doing yourselves over.

Yea its our fault the rep resigned 'cause he wasnt willing to back the crap deal the CWU would have forced him to approve.

Honestly postman...