PEC etc - are you still hopefull for our new realationship?

[Martin Walsh]

Hold up stoke , first and foremost the union did not negotitate the SDD agreement which included job and knock , Allan Leighton introduce it after speaking to a number of postman and women and then management offered it locally and offices accepted against the unions advice. In fact the union delivered a national no vote and had it not been for London who got a yes vote in the London weighting ballot which sparked the biggest unofficial strike since the miners where some of us were out for almost 3 weeks this union would not have got in and re-negotiated some aspects of the deal , MTSF 2 and other aspects of the agreement including the saving targets.

However the union could not remove the job and knock proposal which Allan Leighton had wrote in after a letter he sent to all staff had promised it , obviously had something to do with his ego.

Way before 2007 Royal Mail wanted to remove the job and knock pratice and stated with the mantra we want postal workers to work all the hours they are paid for.

Fishtank lets live in the real world , I was a delivery postman for almost 10 years and I visit about 90 different offices per year , last year 140 and I have mates who still do the job and they tell me along with the local reps I meet and the area reps.

Job and finish , has allowed postal workers for decades chase time. The only times I have know when postal workers have enjoyed more work on deliveries is when we had the traffic related bonus schemes which meant more traffic and you then had more overtime.

A good question in point is door to door. I totally understand the issue of those who lose money but how many have argued we dont want this work. Quite a few. Where is the logic in that ?

Everyone knows that mech has taken away IPS , and walk sequencing will reduce prep if they get it right by appoxmately 19 mins per 1000 items, so the union has attempted to fill this gap by work which is in a growing area and yet people moan about it. It makes no sense.

[pickaname]

Dingo,

people are moaning about loss of earnings with regards to d2d - not doing them.

It sticks in my throat that my previous d2d payments are subsidising the delivery supplement of those who dont do d2d's.

The union can dress it up however they like but the fact is I lost £45 a week so that everyone in deliveries gets the supplement.

Better the union took the d2d monies and spread it across the people that do them. Not just a blanket payment.

Whats the supplement for anyway? Why do we get a supplement? Is it so they can remove it later on? Yes of course.

[Martin Walsh]

Pickaname to the contrary every supplement we have had ends up in pensionable pay UPAP , Ex IWM , ICS or PBS have all ended up in pay.

[fishtank]

.
Fishtank lets live in the real world , I was a delivery postman for almost 10 years and I visit about 90 different offices per year , last year 140 and I have mates who still do the job and they tell me along with the local reps I meet and the area reps.

Job and finish , has allowed postal workers for decades chase time. The only times I have know when postal workers have enjoyed more work on deliveries is when we had the traffic related bonus schemes which meant more traffic and you then had more overtime.

A good question in point is door to door. I totally understand the issue of those who lose money but how many have argued we dont want this work. Quite a few. Where is the logic in that ?

Everyone knows that mech has taken away IPS , and walk sequencing will reduce prep if they get it right by appoxmately 19 mins per 1000 items, so the union has attempted to fill this gap by work which is in a growing area and yet people moan about it. It makes no sense.

For decades dingo?...rewriting history again?.
Up until 2003 we finished in the office on our time,obviously the procedure may have been different in London.
Ok let's live in the real world then dingo.
Real Job and finish ended about 3 years ago,now all that's left is coming in early,skipping meal relief and private cars on delivery.
No-one with any sense will argue against extra work but it must be managed properly and the idea that you can simply replace low impact indoor work with high impact outdoor work is exactly the kind of nonsense i would expect from someone who doesn't have to endure the physical difficulties involved with this job.
It makes no sense to you because you have no intention of ever picking up a 16kg bag and walking the streets fo 4hr+.

[andy2007]

I do think some people believe a new relationship is based on Royal Mail surrendering and not introducing change and not absorbing even when people are still finishing early.

That is not a new relationship and it will simply not happen.

The new relationship is about working together , sharing information , agreeing new and fair measurements and trying to acheive agreements which deliver benefits for the staff, maximising full time jobs , whilst ensuring that the business survives.

...

No other workforce moans as much as postal workers on how much work they have to deliver , why because more work means more time on the job and in the main less opportunity chasing time. Can you imagine car makers moaning about how many cars they make or shipworkers moaning about how many ships they build ? No because they know work is power the more work you have the more sercure your job is.

So I have seen Royal Mail at regional level involve the union more in their thinking and taking our thoughts and on some occasions changing their plans. However it is early days and tougher tests will come.

But tell me what is the alternative to attempting to improve relationships ? Do we really want to fight for bad relationships ?

Really?
You may or may not be right about the details in this specific case. I don't know, as I work indoors. But how exactly do you expect this new relationship to happen when we have incidents like this happening (and it's not an isolated case):
LTB 513/10 - Network 2010 Revisions

To view this download, please click here




No: 513/10
Ref: 233
Date: 9th June 2010










To All Postal Branches With LGV and RDC Members
All LGV Representatives
All RDC Representatives
All Area Distribution Representatives
All Divisional Representatives











Dear Colleague



NETWORK 2010 REVISIONS



Reports have been received in the department regarding managerial briefings on proposals for Network 2010 revisions.



I wish to make it absolutely clear that these revisions have not been agreed Nationally and that management's actions in this regard are totally out with the approach as agreed in the Business Transformation Agreement.


To be absolutely clear the Network section of the Transformation Agreement does commit us to annual Network reviews with the aspiration of concluding those reviews by the end of the summer of each year for the next three years and we are totally committed to honouring that agreement. However, the agreement is also crystal clear that the CWU will be provided with the opportunity to shape, influence, have input and ensure that employee aspirations have been factored into the approach and planning prior to decisions being finalised and this has not happened.


We all appreciate that the new mutual interest culture will take time to evolve but sadly the decision by local managers to go out with an unagreed approach on Network 2010 proposals reflects the same 'take it or leave it dogma' which has bedevilled Network for the past three years or more.





Against that backdrop I reiterate the following points:



that these proposals have not been agreed Nationally by the CWU


the approach to local reps is not endorsed Nationally by the CWU


as the Network 2010 discussions are still at the planning stage no local negotiations should commence until Nationally agreed guidelines are produced.



Any enquiries in relation to this agreement should be addressed to Terry Pullinger, Assistant Secretary, email dwyatt@cwu.org, quoting reference 233.



Yours sincerely









Terry Pullinger
Assistant Secretary

I'm sorry for going off topic. But I do think that it illustrates RM's attitude to us, and the agreement. What do you think?

[Martin Walsh]

Well fishtank most offices on two deliveries finished on their tens and had job and knock. SDD did not create job and finish.

Now in terms of making sure the extra work is managed right I am in agreement with you and thats why we have the review group and local revison workshop which has a 26 week process for the revison and a regional review group.

Now in terms of me picking up 16kg well whilst it could help me in my desire to lose some of my bulk hopefully going forward in 3 years time no one will ever have to lift 16kg around their deliveries again as they will have better tools for the job.

Your assumption that job and knock somehow finished 3 years ago is also in correct in some delivery office including those outside London it is alive and kicking and even when absorbtion is in.

Hopefully when CDVs , and the new workplan kicks in that postal workers will finally stop chasing time as that possible causes them more stress then most other things at work. That might not make me popular but you know thats true.

[clashcityrocker]

No-one with any sense will argue against extra work but it must be managed properly and the idea that you can simply replace low impact indoor work with high impact outdoor work is nonsense

If you want to be a manager for Tesco's you have to spend a certain amount of time actually on the shop floor each week so you can understand the concerns of the employees who actually do the hard graft.
This is an idea that needs to be put into practice at RM. If our managers and their managers actually had to do a delivery every week, or even every month, I reckon our deliveries would look very different. We are not superhuman, yet every day we are expected to perform a level of physical activity that is now well beyond the capabilities of the average adult.And there is no clear evidence as to what sort of toll this is taking on our bodies. (Without even starting on the ridiculously harsh attendance procedure)

[POSTMAN]

Outdoor work is a big worry for all of us.
It seems we need an area to do the full revision and gauge from there.As we know some offices depending on where they are in relation to the WSM's will have a longer delivery span than others.
We need to know what the max span will be.

I'm guessing this is going on somewhere,any idea where and how they are getting on,or when they are due to start the full lot?

[spilie]

it has long been rumoured that the union is out of touch with the membership, but after that last response from dingo it is now confirmed, what a statement to make that we moan to much, but here`s a thought if we didnt moan would we need YOU?

[clashcityrocker]

it has long been rumoured that the union is out of touch with the membership, but after that last response from dingo it is now confirmed, what a statement to make that we moan to much, but here`s a thought if we didnt moan would we need YOU?

To be fair - he didn't say we moan too much. He said we moan too much about having work when people in other industries would welcome more work. Given the posts on here regarding D2D, I think it was a fair comment to make.

[Big Daz]

Real job and finsh is alive and well in my D.O the staff attendance sheets well and truly prove this. Evidence of this can be provided. Private cars are not used yes members come in early dont take break but that does not account for the time made so logic. Not even a few extra trips back to the box if pouches were overweight and then broken down would fill out the time.

Before SDD we were allocated work to do either sorting or delivery of oversized packets to keep us going although this was in place of a 2nd delivery as there was no time to sort up and deliver 2nd del mail upon return from 1st del.

[spilie]

no clashcity he meant stop moaning, and not because we have to work what a load of p*sh it`s just the union way of telling you to be grateful you have a job and get on with it, which funnily enough is the RM stance so lets stop kidding each other, they sold us out and now they cant take the heat so anybody who questions them is now a Moaner

[gb93]

[quote="Big Daz"]Real job and finsh is alive and well in my D.O the staff attendance sheets well and truly prove this.

Ditto,But sure time will come when a Dom who wants to climb the greasy pole will arrive and use the attendance sheets as cart blanche to cut hours and then reality will really kick in for some.

[fishtank]

Well fishtank most offices on two deliveries finished on their tens and had job and knock. SDD did not create job and finish.

Not up here dingo,for us apart from a Saturday and Christmas pressure when we had our once over the ground agreement we finished in the office on our time so job and finish was entirely new to us when SDD came along....and it didn't take long before the savings plans arrived and the steady drip,drip of full-time jobs being replaced by part-time started.
And in went the disagreements and up went the flag to HQ and.....nothing,silence.
Do you know we are technically still at disagreement over both our SDD revision and our post 2007 revision....as well as the Executive action imposed last May which took us to the gate in June and was supposed to be resolved with the farce that was the interim agreement.
I think even you can understand why i don't buy into this new relationship garbage.

It is managements job to get the work done at the lowest possible cost to the business....pure and simple.
How can a union buy into that?......Can you form a relationship based around that ethos?
In my opinion.......NO!
Do i constantly want to be at disagreement with my employer...not really but do i want to be part of an organisation that is really nothing more than a Staff Association.
I don't really need to answer that do i?

[Martin Walsh]

I would never support a staff assocation and the level of disputes we have had shows we are nothing like that. Equally a union has to accept that the industry is changing and automation will drive that and therefore we have to make sure we protect full time jobs in the future and thats why both door to door and the protential for longer spans with better equipment is there. Its a no brainer if you have less time on indoor work then you have to have more time on outdoor work in order to protect full time jobs.

In terms of two deliveries , well we never had asap (advance sorting and prep ) we always had offices which streamed work , by no means every office but most often then not have 1 over 1 deliveries ie for every first delivery we normally had a second delivery. Whereas some had 7 over 1.