unfair dismissal

[POSTMAN]

wtf!

Is there a rep anywhere at these places?

FFS,stop work make your way back to the office,regardless of how long it takes as long as it's in duty time.

[norbert]

I'd print this thread out for the Tribunal .......RM won't like though and they could be vindictive too - that's the danger . I'd tip the local rag off about the IT too , it might ? put the wind up RM .

I sympathise with other posters about nasty underhand managers , some sound like sh***hawks promoted beyond their ability ....quell surprise . It's all to create a culture of fear to soften people up and knock the stuffing out of them for privatisation . The order came from :cfo - it has to be "that awful union" and the staff that are always in the wrong .

Kindest thing you say is that there must be a lot of pressure , bullying and a culture of fear within RM's chain of command .

[raikkonen85]

i have taken mail with me home almost everysat

Ok just stop and think for a min whilst you read that back........................................................................................ Do you see how it sounds?

It sounds like theft, plain and simple and thats how the I.B. will view it. Yes you have the texts saved so they will prob sack your DOM right after they have sack you.

Come on wise up folks DONT TAKE MAIL HOME.

i kno, your right. even if i have spoecials i just leave them in bag drops if the manager wont come down and pick them off me or say take em home. but i didnt know about the IB, i didnt know anything till about 1 year after starting. willfuldelay etc. thats why i said in another post, i think im lucky to be still hear in a way. :s

Its not your fault as you sound like your doing the job to the best of your capacity and you care for the mail

Its the managers who SHOULD still be at the office when you get back to see the mail in. Trouble is (like the poor guy who started this post) no one's and esp a manager is going to back you up if your caught by the I.B as everyone runs a mile and then wags a finger

Thats why this forun is so GOOD as folks with a few more years service can pass on some help. Just dont risk it buddy

thankyou. i do love my job. but i can see how easily it is to be booted out of it. but when i started, i was very naive, i would 100 percent trust the managers. even now i would liek to think i an because honestly the manager in our office is brilliant. but it seems all that could change if hes put on the spotlight.

the problem is alwasy a saturday. postoffice shut at 12.30. DO shut at 12. you cant leave specials in a dropbox. :s there needs to be a better system, at least at our office anyway.

[norbert]

basically they've closed ranks and thrown you to the wolves - I agree about calling their bluff about managers that have sneaked off - are they paid . Problem is that RM will turn a blind eye to it which is essentially fraud seen it happen on nights .

[harry1]

Hi
Thanks for all your comments.
I am aware that officially Royal mail do not allow taking mail home on a saturday as such .
but I cannot be sure what i am going to have left at the end of my duty - I see that some say you should return items to the nearest post office- are these the RM have closed in my area! = 4 in all.
and when your managers tell you to take out the mail/packets etc and sanction you to bring back any undelivered on the following monday as that is how it is done at my office you tend to accept this as normal after a while- lets face it it saves the managers from staying in the office any longer than they have to on a saturday- why work 8 hours when you can only work 4 and still get paid for 8. It becomes so obvious after reading posts on forums such as this that there are massive differences as to how some do operate .
In my office there must be 40 opg and probably 90% take mail home saturdays, because that is how its done here.
Incedentally- (after my manager told the IB that taking mail home saturdays never happened) an Independent manager from another office was appointed to perform my conduct interview , this was the manager who eventually dismissed me
and guess who he was?
he was my do managers golf partner - nice work if you can get it!!

[stokes11eg]

Just go to tribunal and tell the truth.These people are not idiots, and if they believe you, they will rip your managers to shred. If needs be, you could tell the board at the tribunal of this site, and get them to check how often this practise is authorised! (I would anyway!) very good luck.

[norbert]

Just go to tribunal and tell the truth.These people are not idiots, and if they believe you, they will rip your managers to shred. If needs be, you could tell the board at the tribunal of this site, and get them to check how often this practise is authorised! (I would anyway!) very good luck.

this is it - there's a chance of these managers coming over as unreliable / unconvincing witnesses and they have to stick to the RM script ; otherwise they'll be joining you . To keep this down - RM would have to throw expensive Solicitors at it to try and make sh** shine . All it needs is a " friend of a friend " to tip the local rag off and these days the Google Electronic spiders will find it and it'll be in the public domain .



RM will not like this , they're problem is this perfect world in theory which simply doesn't exist and a too black and white judgemental view of everything . Tribunal Chairmen don't like this . It's all about on the balance of probabilities , RM simply don't get this with their " The Emperor's New Clothes " , top down 70's regimented command & control management style .

At the very worst , their solicitors will be on the blower to offer you a settlement to be a " good lad " to drop the hearing to save their sorry arses . The Tribunal may say you contributed to your dismissal but you were more sinned against than sinner .

[stokes11eg]

Yes, and don't forget if you do go to tribunal, some of your workmates may be called to swear on oath it's the habit in the office. if you're lucky some colllegues might be willing to back you up anyway, but may feel threatened not too by Management. However, if you can relay to the Management they could-be called anyway, and would have to tell the truth under oath,they may just see sense. What a company we work for.

[fishtank]

17 MAIL INTEGRITY - SAFEGUARDING CUSTOMERS’ MAIL

UNEXCUSED DELAY TO MAIL

The responsibility for safeguarding the mail and giving it prompt and accurate treatment is one of the most important duties of all employees.

Various actions can cause mail to be delayed, e.g. carelessness or negligence leading to damage or loss of customers mail, breach or disregard of a rule or guideline. Such instances are to be distinguished from wilful delay although they may also be treated as misconduct, and in more serious instances could also result in dismissal.

Furthermore, Royal Mail does recognise that genuine mistakes and misunderstandings do occur and it is not the intention of the Business that such cases should be dealt with under the Conduct Code beyond counselling for the isolated instance. The key is that employees should do their job to the best of their ability and, if in doubt, ask for their manager’s advice and guidance.

WILFUL DELAY

Wilful delay of mail is classed as gross misconduct, which if proven could lead to dismissal. The test to determine whether actions may be considered as wilful delay is as follows:

Deliberate action taken by an employee that causes mail to be delayed is called wilful delay. Where proven, such breaches of conduct can lead to dismissal, even for a first offence; indeed Wilful Delay is a criminal offence and can result in prosecution.

2 TRAINING/LOCAL ARRANGEMENTS

a) It is essential that our employees are given the correct training and support if they are to provide an excellent service to our customers and complete their work entirely in accordance with the requirements of the job. When this is not possible to do this, for any reason, arrangements should be in place to enable employees to alert their manager at an early stage in order to avoid compromising service standards.
b) Delay to mail is a serious matter and it is, therefore, incumbent on all Royal Mail employees to ensure all items are processed in accordance with the local arrangements. All employees will be made aware of these local arrangements and the specific requirements of the particular job(s) they will perform. Every time mail is delayed, for whatever reason, Royal Mail’s employees should attempt to correct the problem efficiently and effectively as soon as possible.


4. GENERAL

a) Employees must be made aware that mail must NEVER be taken home at the end of a delivery. Correct endorsement procedures and correct use of the pouching off wallet, if appropriate, will avoid this.
b) Although the main aim will be to avoid the circumstances that may pose operational difficulties to an employee and to find ways of overcoming any potential problem at a very early stage, it is also important that all employees are made fully aware of the implications of delaying mail and possible consequences.
c) Measures shall be put in place to advise staff on the course of action to be taken when difficulties arise when managers are unavailable.

6. DELAY OF CUSTOMERS’ MAIL - DECISION MAKING MODEL

Alleged Delay Judgement


Incident Does it need First Line Manager to approach employee or not?

Fact-finding Interview Does it end here, i.e. no action, individual advice or ticking off?

Formal Action Is it appropriate for First Line Manager to deal with? Decide on Serious Warning or Reprimand. Is it potential dismissal or action short of dismissal? Pass on to second line manager.

Precautionary Suspension Where it is potential dismissal, are mail or employees at risk? See para 11 precautionary suspension not automatic.

Formal Interview Was mail delayed?

Mail Delayed Any mitigating circumstances?
Was it wilful or unauthorised/unexcused delay?
Penalty Proportionate to the circumstances

[stokes11eg]

In the workplace you obey the last command as it were, and if he was advised to take mail home,the Managers have to be held accountable.

[norbert]

It's not just RM - Its more to do with the cult of New Public Management, which has swept over the public sector. Labour bought into it, but so did all the other politicians and Labour would not listen to the Union critics because it saw them as interested parties - which of course they were. Labour needs to produce some way of reconciling provider interests with those of consumers. The idea that you can run public services without involving the people who deliver the services is stupid. But there needs to be proper mechanisms for giving both service users and taxpayers a voice too.

Basically it goes back to this perfect world when such a manager says this will always happen and the Postman will always do this and that .....otherwise or we know best and have all the answers .....well obviously

the bits in red are very important ......the devil is in the detail . The Question is did RM stick to their own procedures er apparently no


b) Delay to mail is a serious matter and it is, therefore, incumbent on all Royal Mail employees to ensure all items are processed in accordance with the local arrangements. All employees will be made aware of these local arrangements and the specific requirements of the particular job(s) they will perform. Every time mail is delayed, for whatever reason, Royal Mail’s employees should attempt to correct the problem efficiently and effectively as soon as possible.


4. GENERAL

a) Employees must be made aware that mail must NEVER be taken home at the end of a delivery. Correct endorsement procedures and correct use of the pouching off wallet, if appropriate, will avoid this.
b) Although the main aim will be to avoid the circumstances that may pose operational difficulties to an employee and to find ways of overcoming any potential problem at a very early stage, it is also important that all employees are made fully aware of the implications of delaying mail and possible consequences.
c) Measures shall be put in place to advise staff on the course of action to be taken when difficulties arise when managers are unavailable.

[POSTMAN]

But where was the rep when this practice was goin on!!!

[Lincox]

Probably undertrained, unwilling to cause a fuss, undersupported, the list goes on and on. While we pay our subscriptions, all the likes of Unions want to do is to sell us a financial product just to swell the union kitty further and to pay extortionate salaries to the likes of Billy and Dave who just sell us down the river. A vicious circle I do believe.

[REDLETTER]

the problem is alwasy a saturday. postoffice shut at 12.30. DO shut at 12. you cant leave specials in a dropbox. :s there needs to be a better system, at least at our office anyway.

It's National Lottery time!!!

Find a PO that does the National Lottery, they should be open later than the others! If the bods behind the counters, and I include the Post Masters, don't want to take it, take their names and indicate that you will report them for failure to keep mail secure, as you deposit the items in a bag near their security door (just watch them run to get it )

Granted in areas where the PO's are few and far between than this could be a problem, but I'd rather go "the extra mile" and get rid of the stuff.

The other alternative is a mail centre, they won't be happy on the gate when you insist on passing your returned items back to a shift manager.

Better safe than sorry!

I done both, when on walks and driving duties when the DIM has locked up early and where tumble weed was blowing around the empty car park and the dust was collecting in the doorways

[buzzard]

i hope no one else gets caught in this predicament. inexperience and too little in the way of advice from union reps in some offices it seems. the situation as i say it is simple if there is any given day where a postperson thinks before leaving their office that they are going to finish later than when the post office or delivery office closes then inform your manager straight away that unless they make arrangement for to get a driver to collect your specials and oversized packets fom you, or a designated box then you will not be able to take them out on delivery as you are not ever allowed to take any mail home. if for whatever reason they insist on taking the mail out advise to take it home refuse unless you get that request in writing. you will never get it in writing they know you are not allowed to take mail home.