Stitching up a Manger

[wolfie citizen smith]

Your Employer may restrict you taking leave through the following – by your employment contract, via custom or practice or by negotiations with a Trade Union or Employee Representative and thats it

[maisymoo04]

can someone please tell me why the hell our you coming in on your day off on leave to cover a walk hello leave means you stay away from the place ok you might need the money but come on guys as mentioned the dom was prob crappin himself to get the walks covered not your problem what you have got to remember royal mail our tryin to take walks out of offices i would of said no but thats me let the managers cover them not our fault there to tight to take on full time staff nowdays

[island_boy]

Obviously I cannot quote names or case numbers.I was talking about settlement cases.Voluntary labour and accidents whilst on them have always been a loser for our branch.These cases are when members were not even on annual leave,(they were in your case).

The trouble was getting a statement from the ovetime issuer(the manager),to say that he "called the individual to perform the overtime".On all cases they would not give a statement.

Once we argued that the claimant was "called" by Royal Mail they would produce all of their overtime stating that "did the business call them these times too?"

I am not saying what I think.Just telling you what actually happened in these cases

but that statement still does not prove your point, if you are working you are covered by the liability insurance full stop, regardless of whether you should be on A/L or are working overtime, the policy still covers you, the problem you faced was a different one, RM tried to claim you were not working thats a whole different kettle of fish and has nothing to do with whether you are insured or not. if you had managed to prove they were working then the policy would have paid out if appropriate

[drb]

The trouble is the business would like the time they were off sick,they want that money back.If a third party was involved they would get the sick wages back from the third party insurance.However they will never admit it's their fault,plus they cannot claim the sick wages off themselves

Too close on this matter,I agree with the other member.Why come in to work on your leave? Just cancel it if you are going to come in!Save your leave!

[maisymoo04]

tell ye wot folks it all boils down to how your manager is our manager in our office is great lets us get on with our job no hassle i have been in delivery for 23 years and our boss trained me as a postie when he was one (no am not up his arse ha) so it just depends who you have got cud be worse could have had that so called DOM who was on channel 4 dispatches in london didnt have a clue managers like that will just put ye on a downer

[boymay]

I thought long and hard about posting this. Because if anyone in my office reads this they will work out who I am.... but... this really annoys me.

Our Union Rep has basically tried to get our DOM sacked by reporting him to his Area Rep about a certian thing the DOM allowed to happen.

It's simple really. Due to terrible staff shortages he allowed people on holiday to come in and do overtime during their holiday. I know this is not allowed and I belive is called 'ghosting' He did what he needed to do to get the service delivered.

The job got done. Mail got delievered.

The upshot is that the DOM got called to a meeting today. I will find out tomorrow if he still has a job.

Is this the way for a Union Rep to behave? He was pleased with himself.

Why did he not go to the DOM and say "you really should not do this and next time I will have to report it"

I know some will be pleased that a DOM might be sacked ; but surely the attitude from the Rep is wrong?

Comments please

Not going to be hard to work out who I am ! User name gives it away a bit !

Read all the posts and agree with some !

To start with the whole issue around the payment of working AL brought to the fore by said union rep is a real head shaker and one i personaly can't get mine around !
Whilst at a meeting the union rep "allegedly" possed the question with higher management in close attendance "is the working of annual leave allowed ?" to which the reply was "no" ! He then went on to say "well it is going on in my office"
Why this second remark had to be made is beyond my interlect as all it has proved to do is create a whole lot of unrest within the office !

What's more baffling is the said rep sat on the knowledge of this mis management for and I quote from the main source "3 months" ! surely If he felt this strongly about the practise being undertaken then he should have raised the issue with his members well in advance of this sudden outburst !

Many of the parties caught up in whole affair are union members - If this is how union reps help out there members then i'm glad i got out when i did !

Now to the nitty gritty of it and any come back will be welcomed !

Where do we all truly stand and what are the likely out comes ?

As posted before our "Guv" is genuinely fearful for his job ! IMO he has little of a case to answer to ! The hours were never covered to read as something else - staffing levels are very short - and a recruitment freeze i believe was in place along with a transfers being high on impossible aswell ! So what is the likely out come for him ? Any one have any actual previous knowledge of an outcome to this practise ?

What about those of us who worked the time ? Will the money be refunded and the leave given back ? - Will a weeks further leave be taken from us ? - Will OT at nil cost be expected untill hours returned ?

Any answers to these questions most appreciated

[POSTMAN]

I posted the below regarding some of your questions,but i'm guessing it may differ from area to area.

What the DOM has done is illegal,we had this down our way last year,the posties all got their holidays back as well as earning the docket,and our local managers were bollocked for it.

Very very suprised it's still going on.

[Exrep]

Your rep had a duty to bring his second remark up and good on him for doing so.

Remember one thing my friend the union is only as strong as it members and the members in this instance were bang out of order for so said as to work there A/L.

If you had requested one of these weeks the members worked but were told all places have been allocated would you not have felt a bit put out.
There actions are one of selfishness. The simple fact is your DIM knows the score if his office is under staffed he wants to stop being a jellyfish like 99.9% of DIMS are and highlight this problem to there SOM/DSM but they never will.

Scared of being shipped out to a mail centre or put back onto delivery. The only ones that put there heads above the parrow pit is us the blue shirts because we have self respect and the will to stand,fight and be heard, if we think something is not rite.

Royal Mail can not chose parts of agreements they will to ignore and break the law. What really puzzles me is why your fighting this cause the way you are. Why cant you get the fact that your DIM WAS IN THE WRONG and your REP WAS 100% CORRECT IN THIS ACTIONS. The people in your office who worked there A/L were in the wrong as much as your DIM. Tell you what mate ask your rep if you can swop roles for one month and see what we have to put up with on a daily basis.

I bet there are many incidents your rep has saved people jobs ,saved people getting stages,made your office a better place to work under very difficult circumstances that your not even aware of and you have the check to say "If this is how the union reps help out there members" You are having a laugh here.

I will tell you what i hope they do to him I hope they make an example of him and throw the book at him far to long DIMS have thought in this business that they can do what ever they please and break agreements and employment law when ever it suits them.

You should thank your lucky stars you have such a good unit rep so hear hear to your rep for bringing your DIM to book but then again your not a union man so you dont care but you will take everythink the union fights for and wins.

[rottweiler]

it`s common practice in our office, but start at 7am instead of 6am. week off worked, means double pay. no one batts an eye. we are so short staffed, they wont,or say they cant fill the vacancys.

[boymay]

Your rep had a duty to bring his second remark up and good on him for doing so.

Remember one thing my friend the union is only as strong as it members and the members in this instance were bang out of order for so said as to work there A/L.

If you had requested one of these weeks the members worked but were told all places have been allocated would you not have felt a bit put out.
There actions are one of selfishness. The simple fact is your DIM knows the score if his office is under staffed he wants to stop being a jellyfish like 99.9% of DIMS are and highlight this problem to there SOM/DSM but they never will.

Scared of being shipped out to a mail centre or put back onto delivery. The only ones that put there heads above the parapet is us the blue shirts because we have self respect and the will to stand,fight and be heard, if we think something is not rite.

Royal Mail can not chose parts of agreements they will to ignore and break the law. What really puzzles me is why your fighting this cause the way you are. Why cant you get the fact that your DIM WAS IN THE WRONG and your REP WAS 100% CORRECT IN THIS ACTIONS. The people in your office who worked there A/L were in the wrong as much as your DIM. Tell you what mate ask your rep if you can swop roles for one month and see what we have to put up with on a daily basis.

So you feel that sitting on the information for 3 months is acceptable by a person in such a position ? in fact any position !

I can not disagree that maybe the point needed to be raised to make people aware but by the manner in which it was raised absolutely stinks !

I along with with many others (maybe all) thought we were doing the guv a favour by getting deliveries covered along with the plus side of getting some extra money which lets be honest we can all do with !

As for your quote "Tell you what mate ask your rep if you can swop roles for one month and see what we have to put up with on a daily basis" is a total load of crap spouted by you ************ all the time ! You asked to be ellected into the position and once in there you knew that you'd have to put up with whinging from members over petty matters on a daily basis ! If you didn't then don't you feel you were ill equipt to be such a "leader" in the first place ! Then you come out here crying about what a bad time of it you get ! Get to grips ! MATE !

I personally felt at the time of the last strikes that avenues such as "work to rule" should have been explored first ahead of the industrial action ! Although i need not explain my reasons to anyone for leaving let alone you - someone who doesn't know me from Adam - this is why I decided to and something I have to live with ! As for taking what the union fight for and get for us ! As a non member I don't get a choice do I !!!!! But still voice an opinion when office meetings are called to discuss office issues that get voted on only by union members (seems fair) !

To be honest I have sat in on as many if not more stage warnings as a friend and colleague than our office rep and when asked if I would like to add anything that may help I spoke loud and clear in defence of my friends - Unfortunately to date one lost his job ! So don't try and quote on matters outside of the subject within our office that you know nothing about !

[Exrep]

Lets get one thing clear BOYO i never asked you any questions on why you left the union i havnt even commented on any of your post so MATE you dont have to explain yourself to the likes of me.

I Come on here crying you say on how hard i have it, NO MATE i come on here moaning about the weak members in my office that make my job more difficult at times due to there actions. For the record i didnt ask to be elected we didnt have a rep no one else wanted to do it so i stepped up so Royal Mail wouldnt have a free rein over us,.

So now its a case of you spouting off about things you know nothink about funny that isnt it. One other thing to correct you on can you see a pattern emerging here the amount of you quotes i have to correct I didnt take up the reps job to be a leader and i have no wish to be a leader i took up the reps job to try and keep R/M in toe and protect the lads in my office from R/Ms bullying and intimadation .Do you actually understand that or havnt i explained that in plain english.

What matters have i quoted outside the subject if you READ my post you will see i have kept to the post and i certantily mentioned the one goings of your office WHY because know one has said what office we talking about so what angle your coming from with that comment beggars belief.

You were doing the GUV you mean your DIM a favour ( Time for you get real) well you were wrong MATE and its people like you that arnt in the union that go around with a free rein with the IM alright jack attitude set a precident in offices were management believe due to your actions that it acceptable to break employment law and CWU agreements.

What a sad pathetic excuse for a grow adult to use for being a selfish indivdual " I along with with many others (maybe all) thought we were doing the guv a favour by getting deliveries covered along with the plus side of getting some extra money which lets be honest we can all do with !" is that the best you could come up with just tell the truth that you and the others didnt give a crap what implactions your action would and could have for the future.

Its people like you MATE im glad have left the union and before you jump on your high horse i have no desire to know why you left the union because i couldnt care less .Just remember one thing YOU were in the wrong for working whilst on A/L and so were your other colleagues and most importantly your DIM regardless of whether yo were doing him a favour.

Now before you comment on my post read it twice digest what i have wrote read my previous posts then comment but to be honest reading your first attack on me i think you may have me mixed up with an other poster if not your tuned into the big cheese in the sky.

Oh yeah your unit REP was right in his actions, deal with it your not feeling guilty are you because your actions may contribute to your DIM(Guv) getting the boot or being moved on. Learn a lesson DONT WORK WHILST ON A/L.........

[maisymoo04]

well done monkeyboy for steppin into do the rep job and protectin the lads and girls from royal mail walkin all over ye tellin you what wrongly to do as for boyo come on lad behave you have not got a clue what your goin on about as i mentioned before hello AL means HOLIDAY stay away from the office

[boymay]

Lets get one thing clear BOYO i never asked you any questions on why you left the union i havnt even commented on any of your post so MATE you dont have to explain yourself to the likes of me.

I Come on here crying you say on how hard i have it, NO MATE i come on here moaning about the weak members in my office that make my job more difficult at times due to there actions. For the record i didnt ask to be elected we didnt have a rep no one else wanted to do it so i stepped up so Royal Mail wouldnt have a free rein over us,.

So now its a case of you spouting off about things you know nothink about funny that isnt it. One other thing to correct you on can you see a pattern emerging here the amount of you quotes i have to correct I didnt take up the reps job to be a leader and i have no wish to be a leader i took up the reps job to try and keep R/M in toe and protect the lads in my office from R/Ms bullying and intimadation .Do you actually understand that or havnt i explained that in plain english.

What matters have i quoted outside the subject if you READ my post you will see i have kept to the post and i certantily mentioned the one goings of your office WHY because know one has said what office we talking about so what angle your coming from with that comment beggars belief.

You were doing the GUV you mean your DIM a favour ( Time for you get real) well you were wrong MATE and its people like you that arnt in the union that go around with a free rein with the IM alright jack attitude set a precident in offices were management believe due to your actions that it acceptable to break employment law and CWU agreements.

What a sad pathetic excuse for a grow adult to use for being a selfish indivdual " I along with with many others (maybe all) thought we were doing the guv a favour by getting deliveries covered along with the plus side of getting some extra money which lets be honest we can all do with !" is that the best you could come up with just tell the truth that you and the others didnt give a crap what implactions your action would and could have for the future.

Its people like you MATE im glad have left the union and before you jump on your high horse i have no desire to know why you left the union because i couldnt care less .Just remember one thing YOU were in the wrong for working whilst on A/L and so were your other colleagues and most importantly your DIM regardless of whether yo were doing him a favour.

Now before you comment on my post read it twice digest what i have wrote read my previous posts then comment but to be honest reading your first attack on me i think you may have me mixed up with an other poster if not your tuned into the big cheese in the sky.

Oh yeah your unit REP was right in his actions, deal with it your not feeling guilty are you because your actions may contribute to your DIM(Guv) getting the boot or being moved on. Learn a lesson DONT WORK WHILST ON A/L.........

Tell me "MONKEY BOY" were you a politician before you became a postie ?

You seem to be able to run off at the mouth but still find it impossible to answer my opening question ! Or was your closing paragraph your true feelings that it is quite exceptable for a union rep to sit on such information - to hell with the members and all involved - and i'm all right jack deal with your own mess ! But don't worry i'll defend you should you need representing at any further time regarding this issue ! How does that figure out then ?

Congratulations on being a have a go hero in your office and being the voice of people that didn't even ask for you to speak on there behalf ! If i'm correct then doesn't an area rep over see all of the goings on within their area and any grievance that an individual has in the absence of a unit/office rep should be refered to through them ? So in theory any mis management problems felt by members could be dealt with through them - Making "your job" less stressful by not dealing with mindless waffle as you wouldn't have to do it - Any issues YOU have you can still be raised by yourself with your DOM along with the backing of the union in your corner ! YOUR actions could then still have a positive effect for your colleagues !

As it turns out - yes- we were all in the wrong to be working our A/L but to suggest we didn't care what the implications might be in the future is simply unfair as we were unaware of our wrong doings ! This was a genuine mistake - as I stated before I/we did it to cover absent duties and in the process - and in most cases a way to earn some extra docket in doing so ! How does this make us selfish individuals ? As regards taking leave that others may have requested this simply wasn't the case and was leave (certainly in my case) that was allocated by the management in low leave weeks !

Quite comical to read that someone who comes across as quite a militant union member - that you are "GLAD" that ANYONE has left the union without first wondering why they did so ! Who are the "people like you" ? - What does that mean exactly ? - Aren't you supposed to try and recruit all into the union to build strength rather than drive us further away ? !!!

Further more at a recent meeting of members the union rep did what can only be described as an about turn when after explaining to the members why he said what he did then said he would be giving his full support to our DOM in any further actions ! Work that one out !

We have all learned a lesson from this and are all now aware of the situation with regards to working A/L so I hope we have all learned a lesson but does any further action really need to be forth coming ? Even you can't want to see anyone out of a job ! Especially in this climate of uncertainty !

You raised an issue of weak members within ! As a slightly aside issue to all of this would you expect a union rep who voted for strike/industrial action to still come to work and complete their duty ? Now that seems very diluted (weak) and a poor message to all !

One thing I will add and pose to you is this - Do you think it is an idea to offer a holiday buy back scheme to those that truly do not need all the leave available to them ? I mean it woud stop the need for DOM's to allocate unwanted leave into periods of light leave use ! Help employees who rely on docket throughout the week/year by not forfiting due to being off - Also it should help the business to save money if they buy back at a reduced rate compared to paying out on O/T rates ? - eg buy back for £150 - 40 hr contract 7hrs a day - 5 days paid out at £8.50 per hour = £297.50 - taxes ! What saving could Royal Mail make over the business and put towards the costs of modernisation without impacting on front line staff !

I know it's a little off subject and i'll let you get backto ranting over the earlier raised points now !

Oh and no I do not feel guilty - my actions and involvement were innocent - Should the Guv get a dressing down ? - Maybe ! But he is also trying to do his bit by having a clear office ! Wouldn't it have been worse to have let this impacted on the customer by non delivery ?

[krussel]

to hell with the members and all involved - and i'm all right jack deal with your own mess ! But don't worry i'll defend you should you need representing at any further time regarding this issue

Now as it happens if you read back you will find that I am not opposed to people working their rest days or even holidays IF it keeps casual staff out of the office. So this probably puts me in objection to monkey Boys views, but there you go.

Now Boymay I am not going to get involved in your current “ding dong” but having read Monkey Boys posts for some time (I suggest you take the time to do so also) I would not agree that Monkey is anything like the way you have portrayed him with all this “I am all right jack” nonsense. He has always had the best interests of his colleges at heart and has achieved a lot at his office to fight off the continuing series of cut back of duties during Royal Mails current obsession with forced modernisation.

I for one would be more than happy to have him as a rep in my office.

[hampshireman]

The problem here is the members being so fecking sad they came into work whilst on A/L.

Im a rep and my first port of call would have been towards the people on A/L second port the DOM asking him to send the people home who were on A/L .
Why because it shouldnt have happen and the DOM knows this and he was in the wrong for doing what he did. Obviously in your office your resourses are not right if they were this wouldnt of happened.

I myself would ring my area rep, my intentions of informing my area rep would not to have my DOM sacked but to log his actions and to make sure it doesnt happen again and these would of been your own reps intentions not those of getting your dom the boot.Sometimes the lads in the office make the reps job at times impossible .This has happened once in our office and it really does bug me when people dont take there leave entiltment.

So your rep hasnt stitched up your manager hes done it to himself you reap what you sow in this life .

I think in part that pertains to my original point.

It's not the action in itself ; it's how the action was taken.

It would surely have been better to have warned the DOM that the practice was not acceptable and that it should stop. And that further incidents would be reported.

Or is that too simple?