Ward

[headscrewedon]

Didnt loads of yorks of ballot papers get 'found' after the result was declared in 2007?

Dunno if that is one of those 'urban myths' that may or may not have any basis in fact. Perhaps someone could google it and find a press article that confirms the story ?

This was from an article at http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/artic ... _page_id=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; in 2007, describing the result of the strike ballot:

A national postal strike moved dramatically closer today. Thousands of Royal Mail employees voted overwhelmingly in support of strike action in a long-running dispute over pay and working conditions. Members of the Communications Workers Union voted 66,064 in support of strike action with 19,119 against - a majority of 77.5%.

But the figures also showed that of the 127,000 entitled to vote, 42,000 did not bother. CWU leaders held off announcing strike dates until next Wednesday to allow Royal Mail to improve the rejected 2.5% pay rise.

Perhaps when it came to voting on the actual agreement, 50,000 ballot papers were not returned ? Seems more likely to me, as perhaps the 42,000 who didn't vote in the strike ballot were joined by 8,000 more who thought it was such a tough decision, that they didn't bother to vote either

One last point about the "50,000-missing-votes-that-were-found-after-the-ballot-closed" conspiracy theory. Were these ballot papers that were 'found' ever opened up and added up to give a Yes/No split ? I know they couldn't be counted towards the ballot outcome, but isn't it absurd to imply that every single one of the 50,000 'lost-then-found' ballot papers would have been No votes ? Highly unlikely. Equally, it is unlikely that all 50,000 of them were Yes votes, either.

The outcome of the vote on this 2010 agreement is hard to predict. But I will confidently predict a huge number of people will not even bother to vote, as in many previous ballots !!!

[Martin Walsh]

I think your find that it was the way forward 2nd ballot where a load of yorks were found with ballot papers. That led to a few challenges to the indpendent regulator of ballots . It also led to stormy conference debates and a no confidence motion against keggie which was so very close only one branch in it.

[DirtyHarry]

As the counting is done independently, I don't see how you can arrive at that conclusion. Basically you're saying that if the vast majority vote in favour of the agreement, its a fix and if the vast majority vote no, its not a fix? If any coffee needs smelling whilst awake, its on that revelation. The result is the result either way. Too many on here are quick to condemn those that choose not to strike when a democratic vote has been made for IA, but ah, its a different matter if a larger majority vote yes for the agreement? Thats just childish ranting.

That's just it, a larger majority voting for an agreement that only makes their working lives harder???? Voting YES to the SDD agreement in 2003, and voting YES to the Pay & Modernisation agreement in 2007, I can put that down to sheer ignorance on the part of front-line staff, but voting YES to the 2010 & Beyond crap, has me wondering just how ignorant can a downtrodden workforce be?
It's only human nature to be very cautious after being shafted once, let alone twice, but to allow a third hard shafting just stretches my credibility levels to breaking point.
Aside from all that, we live in a deeply dishonest country. The recent shennanigans of politicians of all hues at Westminster, has shown that for the vast majority, the line between right and wrong is very blurred. Businessmen, bankers, all displaying a level of dishonesty that would have shamed many of their predecessors.
Just the way it is now, I'm afraid.

[headscrewedon]

I think your find that it was the way forward 2nd ballot where a load of yorks were found with ballot papers. That led to a few challenges to the indpendent regulator of ballots . It also led to stormy conference debates and a no confidence motion against keggie which was so very close only one branch in it.

I respect what you say Dingo, and it is of course lamentable that ballot papers went astray. But my point is this: is it not a ridiculous assertion by either the No or Yes camp that every one of those votes would have gone to them ? Why on earth was the result not nullified and the ballot run again ? If it had been a No vote, you can bet RM would have mounted a legal challenge. Are you saying then that a questionable result is ok as long as it matches the CWU HQ's recommendation ?

That is very very bad for democracy No wonder conspiracy theories spring up

[dvbuk55]

As the counting is done independently, I don't see how you can arrive at that conclusion. Basically you're saying that if the vast majority vote in favour of the agreement, its a fix and if the vast majority vote no, its not a fix? If any coffee needs smelling whilst awake, its on that revelation. The result is the result either way. Too many on here are quick to condemn those that choose not to strike when a democratic vote has been made for IA, but ah, its a different matter if a larger majority vote yes for the agreement? Thats just childish ranting.

That's just it, a larger majority voting for an agreement that only makes their working lives harder???? Voting YES to the SDD agreement in 2003, and voting YES to the Pay & Modernisation agreement in 2007, I can put that down to sheer ignorance on the part of front-line staff, but voting YES to the 2010 & Beyond crap, has me wondering just how ignorant can a downtrodden workforce be?
It's only human nature to be very cautious after being shafted once, let alone twice, but to allow a third hard shafting just stretches my credibility levels to breaking point.
Aside from all that, we live in a deeply dishonest country. The recent shennanigans of politicians of all hues at Westminster, has shown that for the vast majority, the line between right and wrong is very blurred. Businessmen, bankers, all displaying a level of dishonesty that would have shamed many of their predecessors.
Just the way it is now, I'm afraid.

C'mon H - you would turn down the deal of the century with the BIGGEST pay rise ever - I think he meant pay cut.

[DirtyHarry]

C'mon H - you would turn down the deal of the century with the BIGGEST pay rise ever - I think he meant pay cut.

I know, I must be mad !

[andy2007]

Well it takes all sorts but because some people have been out of work for a long time, because RDC/MC closures will happen, although travelling expenses have been increased and MTSF rules have been relaxed and EVR rules have been amended to, in part, accommodate the proposed closures, then delivery staff should take a pay cut, work longer Saturdays and generally have their terms and conditions eroded - now how that is going to change the tales of woe I fail to understand.

Just hand me a long handled broom and tell me which street

And don't forget WCM being brought in across the board, work rates not being checked independantly, the times at which we're able to send out your Mail for deliveries being made later, etc., etc..

Here are just 2 examples:
1) Some sites having an easy time in the Segs, and criticising people for going too fast. And others, where there has been a number of injuries, caused by people carrying too many Mailbags at once (too much weight), to keep up with the minimum workrate.
2) Insufficient staff on the equipment, meaning that some people "had to be octopuses to keep up with their work." (quote from one of Teebs posts). And others feeling the need to take risks when loading/unloading Lorries, because the limiters on their FLTs/Scuds make them too slow to keep up with the workload. And they don't want to fall behind.

Yes, things are much worse on Deliveries. But do you really think that we would vote for a deal, which would make us catch up with you?

We would of course gain financially. But the Strikes weren't about money. And even if it had been a good deal for us (which it plainly isn't!), do you really expect us to take the 30 pieces of silver, and see our brothers and sisters in Deliveries shafted?!?!?

[Tman]

2) Insufficient staff on the equipment, meaning that some people "had to be octopuses to keep up with their work." (quote from one of Teebs posts).

Yebbut, he's a delivery bloke, and spends all day strolling his walk and chatting to old ladies. It only seemed like they "had to be octopuses" because of the easy DO life he's used to.....

[dvbuk55]

Well it takes all sorts but because some people have been out of work for a long time, because RDC/MC closures will happen, although travelling expenses have been increased and MTSF rules have been relaxed and EVR rules have been amended to, in part, accommodate the proposed closures, then delivery staff should take a pay cut, work longer Saturdays and generally have their terms and conditions eroded - now how that is going to change the tales of woe I fail to understand.

Just hand me a long handled broom and tell me which street

And don't forget WCM being brought in across the board, work rates not being checked independantly, the times at which we're able to send out your Mail for deliveries being made later, etc., etc..

Here are just 2 examples:
1) Some sites having an easy time in the Segs, and criticising people for going too fast. And others, where there has been a number of injuries, caused by people carrying too many Mailbags at once (too much weight), to keep up with the minimum workrate.
2) Insufficient staff on the equipment, meaning that some people "had to be octopuses to keep up with their work." (quote from one of Teebs posts). And others feeling the need to take risks when loading/unloading Lorries, because the limiters on their FLTs/Scuds make them too slow to keep up with the workload. And they don't want to fall behind.

Yes, things are much worse on Deliveries. But do you really think that we would vote for a deal, which would make us catch up with you?

We would of course gain financially. But the Strikes weren't about money. And even if it had been a good deal for us (which it plainly isn't!), do you really expect us to take the 30 pieces of silver, and see our brothers and sisters in Deliveries shafted?!?!?

Erm - maybe I'm missing the point here but what relevance has this post to do with what I posted - I didn't suggest for a moment that anyone NOT in deliveries would vote yes. My post was in reply to a previous poster who had suggested that not voting yes invited unemployment and could forestall MC closures.

I don't particularly want to work longer Saturdays, but I'd still rather have that job than face redundancy in the current economic climate. I know 2 ex-rover employees who have not been able to get a job since their factory shut. (And it isn't for lack of trying for other jobs, either). A cut in d2d money - which was never guaranteed - might be hard to stomach. But a cut from a full-time wage to ZERO pay is on the cards for thousands of MC and RDC staff

This was the post I was referring to.

[wingmanchillian]

Fiddled? Explain.

I think what Jenny was saying, is that RM management, and the CWU hierarchy, have proven themselves so untrustworthy to the vast majority of postal workers that, as in many a banana republic, the whole voting process will be, errrrm, how shall I put it? Knobbled.

As the counting is done independently, I don't see how you can arrive at that conclusion. Basically you're saying that if the vast majority vote in favour of the agreement, its a fix and if the vast majority vote no, its not a fix? If any coffee needs smelling whilst awake, its on that revelation. The result is the result either way. Too many on here are quick to condemn those that choose not to strike when a democratic vote has been made for IA, but ah, its a different matter if a larger majority vote yes for the agreement? Thats just childish ranting.

i think its just a case of a lot of people are concerned about the way the CWU has only promoted this proposal at great lengths without going into any of the negatives. many people will only have read the leaflet and looked at the recommendation before they vote so no surprise if they vote yes. would they have still voted yes though if they had received the whole agreement or even just the parts that were relevant to them?

when the CWU talk of the 75/25 split they come across to many as if they have done a great thing(imo its not but some will disagree). would these people still think that if every time it was mentioned the cwu also explained that there would be a lot of job loss's before this figure was reached?

when some of the people i speak to call it a scam/fix etc.. i think they just feel the promotion of the proposal has been biased. ofc some actually think its rigged some and believe it will be fair. personally i believe its been far to biased.

[andy2007]

Well it takes all sorts but because some people have been out of work for a long time, because RDC/MC closures will happen, although travelling expenses have been increased and MTSF rules have been relaxed and EVR rules have been amended to, in part, accommodate the proposed closures, then delivery staff should take a pay cut, work longer Saturdays and generally have their terms and conditions eroded - now how that is going to change the tales of woe I fail to understand.

Just hand me a long handled broom and tell me which street

And don't forget WCM being brought in across the board, work rates not being checked independantly, the times at which we're able to send out your Mail for deliveries being made later, etc., etc..

Here are just 2 examples:
1) Some sites having an easy time in the Segs, and criticising people for going too fast. And others, where there has been a number of injuries, caused by people carrying too many Mailbags at once (too much weight), to keep up with the minimum workrate.
2) Insufficient staff on the equipment, meaning that some people "had to be octopuses to keep up with their work." (quote from one of Teebs posts). And others feeling the need to take risks when loading/unloading Lorries, because the limiters on their FLTs/Scuds make them too slow to keep up with the workload. And they don't want to fall behind.

Yes, things are much worse on Deliveries. But do you really think that we would vote for a deal, which would make us catch up with you?

We would of course gain financially. But the Strikes weren't about money. And even if it had been a good deal for us (which it plainly isn't!), do you really expect us to take the 30 pieces of silver, and see our brothers and sisters in Deliveries shafted?!?!?

Erm - maybe I'm missing the point here but what relevance has this post to do with what I posted - I didn't suggest for a moment that anyone NOT in deliveries would vote yes. My post was in reply to a previous poster who had suggested that not voting yes invited unemployment and could forestall MC closures.

I don't particularly want to work longer Saturdays, but I'd still rather have that job than face redundancy in the current economic climate. I know 2 ex-rover employees who have not been able to get a job since their factory shut. (And it isn't for lack of trying for other jobs, either). A cut in d2d money - which was never guaranteed - might be hard to stomach. But a cut from a full-time wage to ZERO pay is on the cards for thousands of MC and RDC staff

This was the post I was referring to.

No. But you did list only the good points for non-Delivery Posties, and said "Just hand me a long handled broom and tell me which street ". So I thought that, that was your point. Sorry.

[dvbuk55]

Well it takes all sorts but because some people have been out of work for a long time, because RDC/MC closures will happen, although travelling expenses have been increased and MTSF rules have been relaxed and EVR rules have been amended to, in part, accommodate the proposed closures, then delivery staff should take a pay cut, work longer Saturdays and generally have their terms and conditions eroded - now how that is going to change the tales of woe I fail to understand.

Just hand me a long handled broom and tell me which street

And don't forget WCM being brought in across the board, work rates not being checked independantly, the times at which we're able to send out your Mail for deliveries being made later, etc., etc..

Here are just 2 examples:
1) Some sites having an easy time in the Segs, and criticising people for going too fast. And others, where there has been a number of injuries, caused by people carrying too many Mailbags at once (too much weight), to keep up with the minimum workrate.
2) Insufficient staff on the equipment, meaning that some people "had to be octopuses to keep up with their work." (quote from one of Teebs posts). And others feeling the need to take risks when loading/unloading Lorries, because the limiters on their FLTs/Scuds make them too slow to keep up with the workload. And they don't want to fall behind.

Yes, things are much worse on Deliveries. But do you really think that we would vote for a deal, which would make us catch up with you?

We would of course gain financially. But the Strikes weren't about money. And even if it had been a good deal for us (which it plainly isn't!), do you really expect us to take the 30 pieces of silver, and see our brothers and sisters in Deliveries shafted?!?!?

Erm - maybe I'm missing the point here but what relevance has this post to do with what I posted - I didn't suggest for a moment that anyone NOT in deliveries would vote yes. My post was in reply to a previous poster who had suggested that not voting yes invited unemployment and could forestall MC closures.

I don't particularly want to work longer Saturdays, but I'd still rather have that job than face redundancy in the current economic climate. I know 2 ex-rover employees who have not been able to get a job since their factory shut. (And it isn't for lack of trying for other jobs, either). A cut in d2d money - which was never guaranteed - might be hard to stomach. But a cut from a full-time wage to ZERO pay is on the cards for thousands of MC and RDC staff

This was the post I was referring to.

No. But you did list only the good points for non-Delivery Posties, and said "Just hand me a long handled broom and tell me which street ". So I thought that, that was your point. Sorry.

Hey no worries - it's easy to get confused at my age I thought I might have missed something Which if I'd quoted the post I was referring to in the first place then neither of us would have been confused - so mea culpa