Have you all given up!

[Rennie]

dingo wrote

Once you see the impact you will be thankful that we have an agreement in place which gives protection to full time jobs and benefits.

The 75% / 25% ratio is a cop out as it could mean 75 Ft jobs /25PT jobs in an office or it could be 50FT /13Pt in the same office? Who knows what budget savings RM will want? Nobody knows? Natural wastage will mean more B&H to get rid of staff to fit RM's budget! What will be the performance standard? Will us old farts be able to keep up with the whippets? The performance standard will dictate the budget and none of us know what it is likely to be !! HOW CAN WE VOTE IF WE DONT KNOW!!! Sorry must stop shouting. In the real world away from the CWU ivory towers we all know where this is going as we've seen it happening over the last few years. We will be expected to do more and more until we (the 90% not performing) all drop or are forced out for failing to comply with one or another performance standard!! If you want a yes vote give me the expected prep/ips/walk speeds etc so I can determine whether I'm capable!!

[BELIAL]

dingo wrote

Once you see the impact you will be thankful that we have an agreement in place which gives protection to full time jobs and benefits.

The 75% / 25% ratio is a cop out as it could mean 75 Ft jobs /25PT jobs in an office or it could be 50FT /13Pt in the same office? Who knows what budget savings RM will want? Nobody knows? Natural wastage will mean more B&H to get rid of staff to fit RM's budget! What will be the performance standard? Will us old farts be able to keep up with the whippets? The performance standard will dictate the budget and none of us know what it is likely to be !! HOW CAN WE VOTE IF WE DONT KNOW!!! Sorry must stop shouting. In the real world away from the CWU ivory towers we all know where this is going as we've seen it happening over the last few years. We will be expected to do more and more until we (the 90% not performing) all drop or are forced out for failing to comply with one or another performance standard!! If you want a yes vote give me the expected prep/ips/walk speeds etc so I can determine whether I'm capable!!

Got it in one and nicely put

[pendley]

like dingo says we all know where this leads.even if we believe union spin that these concessions are vital to portect future jobs,whatever rights we previously had will evaporate,leaving us back where we are now.

[Rennie]

No reply from Dingo. maybe he'll answer this one!
We received a leaflet today 'A Fresh start' from CWU concentrating on D2D.
A few points I would like to raise
1. D2D is already in workload. We prep them during duty time and deliver 20%/day. Every revision done in our office takes account of this fact!! The CWU should have been making sure all offices include this work during office revisions. D2D should only be touched during contractual hours! End of! Who would want to work for nothing? Would Royal Mail expect you too?
2. You state the pot of money has shrunk and will continue to shrink under current arrangements. Yet you also state we turned away 40 million due to the cap. So why not just remove the cap? End of!
3. If this simple measure was negotiated we would still have D2D in workload (as it is now, or should be!!) The product would grow by 40 million this year. The ones who actually do the work would be rewarded appropiatley (as it should be)!! Irrespective of their contractual hours!! Our terms and conditions would have improved dramatically. It is a fact that most have had their T & C eroded!! Shameful in my opinion!
4. If Royal Mail decide to put all D2D products into and 'exploding sleeve' that can be walk sequenced then they would loose valuble custom. We are constantly told not to fold D2D/election material items together! There is a reason for this and RM will not risk loosing customers in this highly competitive environment. If they did do it we would be at the level the CWU is offering now! One D2D with six leaflets in would still be worth £8! That is the same payment we get now plus our EMS allowance!!
5. What would have been an impressive outcome, something I have tried to persuade cwu into adopting, without success! would have been one item/day over six days resulting in a 100% call rate. Outdoor work could have been be set in stone as there would be no differential in outdoor duty times as it would be the same every day irrespective of mail volumes/traffic!! This one measure alone would have stabilised the industry! It is only the indoor work that will reduce over the coming years! This was a massive opportunity that has simply been ignored!

This is why I am voting No. Although I will not cast my vote until I receive a valid reply.

[BELIAL]

I doubt you will get an answer ,bit like having agreed performance standards before you get to vote on a deal that hinges on agreed performance standards that you vote on without performance standards being agreed before you vote. Everyone clear ,just vote ,you know it don't make sense

[banner18]

No reply from Dingo. maybe he'll answer this one!
We received a leaflet today 'A Fresh start' from CWU concentrating on D2D.
A few points I would like to raise
1. D2D is already in workload. We prep them during duty time and deliver 20%/day. Every revision done in our office takes account of this fact!! The CWU should have been making sure all offices include this work during office revisions. D2D should only be touched during contractual hours! End of! Who would want to work for nothing? Would Royal Mail expect you too?
2. You state the pot of money has shrunk and will continue to shrink under current arrangements. Yet you also state we turned away 40 million due to the cap. So why not just remove the cap? End of!
3. If this simple measure was negotiated we would still have D2D in workload (as it is now, or should be!!) The product would grow by 40 million this year. The ones who actually do the work would be rewarded appropiatley (as it should be)!! Irrespective of their contractual hours!! Our terms and conditions would have improved dramatically. It is a fact that most have had their T & C eroded!! Shameful in my opinion!
4. If Royal Mail decide to put all D2D products into and 'exploding sleeve' that can be walk sequenced then they would loose valuble custom. We are constantly told not to fold D2D/election material items together! There is a reason for this and RM will not risk loosing customers in this highly competitive environment. If they did do it we would be at the level the CWU is offering now! One D2D with six leaflets in would still be worth £8! That is the same payment we get now plus our EMS allowance!!
5. What would have been an impressive outcome, something I have tried to persuade cwu into adopting, without success! would have been one item/day over six days resulting in a 100% call rate. Outdoor work could have been be set in stone as there would be no differential in outdoor duty times as it would be the same every day irrespective of mail volumes/traffic!! This one measure alone would have stabilised the industry! It is only the indoor work that will reduce over the coming years! This was a massive opportunity that has simply been ignored!

This is why I am voting No. Although I will not cast my vote until I receive a valid reply.

1. True, but it will be much more explicit now and at a national level. There will be time set where people will be called to prep D2D. Can't say I have ever seen that. Managers have took advantage in the past, but that will be impossible with an explicit agreement. They will be under the same umbrella as mail and thus you will be paid in the same way as you are for mail, with an hourly rate.
2. The pot of money is shrinking, although slight. This is a judgment call to capture the money now. It is believed that D2D will continue to shrink overall due to poor quality. The 40 million extra was in high quality areas only, the extra earnings would have been available to them in those areas only. It would not stop the overall decline, or enable RM to grow the product across the country as a whole, which is the real reason behind the whole D2D issue.
3. Why should only some have the opportunity of earning the extra money? What extra work will anyone be doing if the product is in workload? Everyone will work their hours. The same argument applies to mail, I know guys with over 700 drops who deliver twice as much as others and yet I never heard anyone saying they should get paid twice as much. D2D is out of sync with mail at the moment, it should be in workload and paid for as mail is now, for each hour worked.
4. If they automate D2D they will be able to offer the service even cheaper. Check out the countries that use it, there is no problem with quality, the sleeve collapses and the D2D fall away from each other.
5. Problem would be securing the contracts for each day couldn't be guaranteed. What about days when there isn't one. Posties will all be home early, not very efficient. Automating them would then be a problem then. Surely it is much more efficient to call once a week with 6, than once every day with 1?

[spilie]

Basically, if you are new, then you will not be entitled to any kind of driver allowances. One of the many things taken from us over the past few years. One of the few allowances left are D2D payments but RM has it in its sights to remove them.

posted in 2008 banner mmmmm makes me wonder ........................

[Martin Walsh]

Rennie was not avoiding the questions but was out watching football with some mates.

Ok first point is wrong. When you quote the Door to Door national agreement you have to look at both the addendum and the the joint statement which was the result of loads of disagreements over the addendum. The Joint statement states and I quote IT IS ACCEPTED THAT THE PRINCIPLE OF DOOR TO DOOR BEING PAID AS A UNIT PAYMENT IS THAT IT WILL BE ABSORBED WITHIN NORMAL DUTY TIME INTO EXISTING DELIVERIES IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE ADVERTISED SERVICE STANDARDS FOR ALL MAIL. PROBLEMS ON WORKLOAD SHOULD BE DEALT WITH SEPERATELY. THE DOOR TO DOOR PRODUCT SHOULD NOT BE A BASIS FOR DISAGREEMENT ON DELIVERY WORKLOAD ISSUES.

So that blows your arguement. The fact is now Door to Door is in workload and will now mean if you have 10 000 delivery points and and each of those get 3 items then your traffic in the office is increased by 30 000 items which is now measured and say you have a 10 prep rate for these items then that means protentially 50 hours more in your office to prep them and of course you then have to deliver those items or say you have 500 delivery points more or the less the average in the country as there are only 28 million addresses then if you have 3 items per week then that is 1500 items which now needs to be factored in on your prep and delivery and based on 10 prep rate again then that is 2.5 hours more time on your prep which has to be built into your duty. Plus if you have 500 delivery points and you include door to door into workload and your call rate is 85 it moves up to 88. If your call rate is 75% then it moves up to 80. That means on geo route you will retain more hours in your office.

The pot is shrinking and will continue to decline if it is Door 2 Door remains as it is. There is no prospect of just lifting the cap and continue to keep the unit payment as the quality will simply deciline as if areas that are now able to do 3 items per week by absorbing them in your duty time then they wont be able to do that with 4 or 5 items. The facts are that the door to door market is some 14 billion items and Royal Mail`s share is 3 billion and declining and that is not only down to the cap but the fact that its not a popular item for postmen and women.

Now in terms of the point you make about that some will lose and should not I agree The union could have taken a less pay cut this year and got the supplement up but that would have meant that processing , distrbution and network would have not benefited at all which is not right. Plus you have to remember that door to door payments will cease and it will form part of the overall workload in the same way priority services , first calss , mail sort ect do.
Royal Mail senior operational managers are very nervous of this as they now want to put a further cap on the door to door product if the agreement goes through to see the impact on both workhours and revenue Remember if door to door suddenly means more hours in an office which it undoubtly does then you are paying not only the new hourly rate but national insurance , pesnion costs etc against a product which may counter balance the net effect of gaining more money from the door to door product.

Look the sleve effect for the door to door item is widely used in most countries plus mail houses post door to door items in an envelope so it does not result in a loss of revenue. The fact is that the white sleves allow for the items to be dropped indivudually on the mat . The unaddressed market in places like paris etc is massive and they use the sleves . Now the early shift allowance the union managed under the way forward to get the early shift payments but it was always based on the following words EARLY SHIFT ALLOWANCES IN DELIVERY RETAINED AS GRANDFATHER RIGHTS (FOR THOSE IN RECIEPT SINCE APRIL 2007 ) INCLUDING THOSE IN RECEIPT OF THE EQUIVALENT MTSF PAYMENTS MADE SINCE MAY 2005. WE WILL AGREE HOW THIS MONEY, AND EQUIVALENT PAYMENTS FOR EARLY SHIFTS , MAYBE USED GOING FORWARD AS PART OF THE PAY RESTURCTURING PROCESS IN JOINT WORKING GROUP 2 - IF NO SATISFACTORY SOLUTION IS FOUND THEN GRANDFATHER RIGHTS WILL BE RETAINED. THE EARLY SHIFT PAYMENT IS CEASED IN DELIVERY ON AGREEMENT TO PAY RESTRUCTURING.

The fact is that not many people will start at that time in the future and some are probably not now. Plus new recurits no longer get this payment so it was thought best to put that money into the supplement and that will increase in every pay rise.

Now in terms of door to door payments , I do believe that the union had to act now as automation in the way of walk sequencing is in this year and the 60 /40 split will mean that your office when it starts will only have 60% of your workload up to 08:30 or as late as 10. Plus the average payment is £12 and only 2/3rds of the delivery membership recieves that opportuity to earn that amount and it varies walk to walk. Now 97 500 will get the payment as opposed to the 79 753 who get the payment now 52 weeks per year. The door to door money does not get paid from the first week in December till the first week in January and you do not recieve it when your on annual leave, sick leave.

You will vote how you see the agreement. I have no compaints with that. The way I see this agreement is that those who are voting no are making a decision based on the here and now and based on things staying the same if they reject it. Those who are supporting the agreement know that you the change which is occuring including the changes to the workplan and walk sequencing is the biggest change we have ever faced and if we have no agreement then we face oblivon. I have never been scared to fight industrially and will not in the future but sometimes you have to grasp the future by accepting that something are now in the past.

The members will decide and we both just have one vote.

[Glenno]

quote
The fact is that not many people will start at that time in the future and some are probably not now. Plus new recurits no longer get this payment so it was thought best to put that money into the supplement and that will increase in every pay rise.
Q
Why was it not best thought of to put the EMS into Basic Pay... as all who receive it have earnt it over the years,and as it
is still Pensionable for those that still receive it ,if put into Basic it would continue to grow with future increases??
its called Reward for those that have earnt it..

But then that would leave the Supplement a bit short and even harder to sell maybe

[Martin Walsh]

Glenno that's quite simply not everyone in deliveries recieves any early shift payments . Plus some recieve the 6 pounds early shift payments and some recieve the 12 pounds early shift payment . Plus anyone who has joined after 2007 will not recieve anything .

So if the ESA was put in basic pay then either we would different rates of basic pay within offices let alone in areas or we then shared everyone ESA out to the whole delivery workforce and then you may lose again and in pensionibilty.

[numan]

The fact is now Door to Door is in workload and will now mean if you have 10 000 delivery points and and each of those get 3 items then your traffic in the office is increased by 30 000 items which is now measured and say you have a 10 prep rate for these items then that means protentially 50 hours more in your office to prep them and of course you then have to deliver those items or say you have 500 delivery points more or the less the average in the country as there are only 28 million addresses then if you have 3 items per week then that is 1500 items which now needs to be factored in on your prep and delivery and based on 10 prep rate again then that is 2.5 hours more time on your prep which has to be built into your duty. Plus if you have 500 delivery points and you include door to door into workload and your call rate is 85 it moves up to 88. If your call rate is 75% then it moves up to 80. That means on geo route you will retain more hours in your office.

As the amount of D2D items is obviously going to vary from week to week, exactly how is the weekly varying of duty times going to be achieved in the real world?

[Glenno]

or we then shared everyone ESA out to the whole delivery workforce and then you may lose again and in pensionibilty.

This sounds very familiar

[Rennie]

Dingo
Thankyou for your detailed analysis to the points I raised. Your input is appreciated!
I still have issues and I still haven't voted. I am at conflict with myself i suppose and the general election doesn't help as I'm sure a new conservative government would love to 'take us on' should we reject this deal!
We have a meeting tonight and I will take on board your comments but as I said in one of my previous posts I am still deeply concernerd with the performance/productivity targets which wont be discussed until after a yes vote.
This one single issue will determine our current and future staffing levels. It will also determine whether I am capable of the set standard. We do have a good rep but my fear is the expected performance may break my already knackered body!

[stokes11eg]

Staffing levels will be reduced with the introduction of automation---heard it before. Our Staffing levels were pruned back in anticipation of these machines nearly four years ago, and we still do not have them! Only AFTER the machines are up and running should reduction in staff should be considered. Not before. It goes without saying that once we are reduced to a skeleton staff, these machines will not materalise in many offices, 'for financial reasons' .

[wetrix]

Dingo, good points

The Union has sold nobody out, has claimed by some

Its a forward thinking agreement to protect jobs, the D2D money would be lost or reduced, fact, they have acted now to get a better supplement.

The job is changing, the Union cant ignore it, voting NO will not make things go away, walk sequencing machines are on the way, they will decimate indoor work, the Union has had to protect work/jobs, now, not when its too late.

Some of it we wont like, D2D, Saturdays etc, but they have done the best they can, in my view.

I think it will be a YES vote, just.