London Division- Vote Yes

[feduppostie]

a quick question if anyone can answer for me

if the 'delivery' supplement has nothing to with d2d's etc and is only a payment for delivery why is it pro rata??

what I mean is the difference between f/t and p/t is f/t do more inside work, the delivery part is the same for all f/t or p/t - so if the supplement is for delivery surely we all do the same amount of that - so why should the payments be different?

[TrueBlueTerrier]

a quick question if anyone can answer for me

if the 'delivery' supplement has nothing to with d2d's etc and is only a payment for delivery why is it pro rata??

what I mean is the difference between f/t and p/t is f/t do more inside work, the delivery part is the same for all f/t or p/t - so if the supplement is for delivery surely we all do the same amount of that - so why should the payments be different?

Agree

But the answer will be - "Its based on contracted hours"

[DirtyHarry]

DO blokes unable/unwilling to see the bigger picture, as recognised by the London CWU.

I'm one of those DO blokes UNWILLING to see the bigger picture as portrayed by untrustworthy RM senior managers, who, by the way, are the highest paid, but least productive elements of this nation's publicly-owned postal service.

I have one question for you, and one question only.
When does the slashing of vital front-line jobs, and the expectation that those poor sods remaining keep taking up the inevitable slack, stop.
Because stop, it surely must. Front-line staff, always the most productive, the most important, element of any business, let alone a nationwide, publicly-owned, industrial giant like Royal Mail, are only human, coming in all shapes and sizes, different ages, different cultures, but all wanting the same thing, to be shown a little humanity by those they slave for, and those who are supposed to champion them, that's all.
Even pack-mules have their limits.

[banner18]

a quick question if anyone can answer for me

if the 'delivery' supplement has nothing to with d2d's etc and is only a payment for delivery why is it pro rata??

what I mean is the difference between f/t and p/t is f/t do more inside work, the delivery part is the same for all f/t or p/t - so if the supplement is for delivery surely we all do the same amount of that - so why should the payments be different?

If it were not pro rata, part timers would be on a different pay scale to full timers effectively being paid more per unit time of work they do. All workload will be shifted into hours therefore there is a direct relationship between your hours and pay. If you work 3/4 the time for RM as another guy, you get 3/4 the pay he gets, it really is simple.
I know that people believe this is unfair on part timers but it really isn't when you understand the reality that everybody should work their hours plus all work for RM will be accounted for in their budgets.
Many part timers and those with many d.p.s are going to take a hit, financially in the short term, but if you just do your hours, take into account that the supplement will be paid every week without fail, will rise over the coming years, the one hour reduction will raise part timers pay, then in the end, with the other benefits of the agreement things will not be that bad.

[dvbuk55]

a quick question if anyone can answer for me

if the 'delivery' supplement has nothing to with d2d's etc and is only a payment for delivery why is it pro rata??

what I mean is the difference between f/t and p/t is f/t do more inside work, the delivery part is the same for all f/t or p/t - so if the supplement is for delivery surely we all do the same amount of that - so why should the payments be different?

If it were not pro rata, part timers would be on a different pay scale to full timers effectively being paid more per unit time of work they do. All workload will be shifted into hours therefore there is a direct relationship between your hours and pay. If you work 3/4 the time for RM as another guy, you get 3/4 the pay he gets, it really is simple.
I know that people believe this is unfair on part timers but it really isn't when you understand the reality that everybody should work their hours plus all work for RM will be accounted for in their budgets.
Many part timers and those with many d.p.s are going to take a hit, financially in the short term, but if you just do your hours, take into account that the supplement will be paid every week without fail, will rise over the coming years, the one hour reduction will raise part timers pay, then in the end, with the other benefits of the agreement things will not be that bad.

Bet you're not a part timer banner.

[fishtank]

banner 18 wrote
Many part timers and those with many d.p.s are going to take a hit, financially in the short term

I love this playground pseudo-economics
If you take a pay freeze last year and a pay cut this year and it takes you until 2012(IF you get the final 3.5%) just to get your earnings back to 2008 levels that is not a short-term hit banner.
The world has not stopped while you wait to get your earnings back to 2008 levels because prices are at well....2012 levels NOT 2008 levels.
It is a long term pay cut in real terms that some members will never truly recover from.

[banner18]

a quick question if anyone can answer for me

if the 'delivery' supplement has nothing to with d2d's etc and is only a payment for delivery why is it pro rata??

what I mean is the difference between f/t and p/t is f/t do more inside work, the delivery part is the same for all f/t or p/t - so if the supplement is for delivery surely we all do the same amount of that - so why should the payments be different?

If it were not pro rata, part timers would be on a different pay scale to full timers effectively being paid more per unit time of work they do. All workload will be shifted into hours therefore there is a direct relationship between your hours and pay. If you work 3/4 the time for RM as another guy, you get 3/4 the pay he gets, it really is simple.
I know that people believe this is unfair on part timers but it really isn't when you understand the reality that everybody should work their hours plus all work for RM will be accounted for in their budgets.
Many part timers and those with many d.p.s are going to take a hit, financially in the short term, but if you just do your hours, take into account that the supplement will be paid every week without fail, will rise over the coming years, the one hour reduction will raise part timers pay, then in the end, with the other benefits of the agreement things will not be that bad.

Bet you're not a part timer banner.

Moving to part time when WSM come in.

[banner18]

banner 18 wrote
Many part timers and those with many d.p.s are going to take a hit, financially in the short term

I love this playground pseudo-economics
If you take a pay freeze last year and a pay cut this year and it takes you until 2012(IF you get the final 3.5%) just to get your earnings back to 2008 levels that is not a short-term hit banner.
The world has not stopped while you wait to get your earnings back to 2008 levels because prices are at well....2012 levels NOT 2008 levels.
It is a long term pay cut in real terms that some members will never truly recover from.

It is case of, if the D2D is to come into workload, this is the fairest system. Whether D2D needs to come into workload is probably up for debate. I am of the opinion that since the work all paid hours mantra from 2007 p&m, then all work should be in paid hours. To still pay differing amounts to delivery staff based on d.p.s will then be unfair.
If you are arguing that D2D can be in workload and paid as now then I think you are wrong. If you are arguing to maintain the current system, that is a different story.
The hype is that the current system is unsustainable. The reality is that RM want to gain new revenues from D2D and cannot under the current system due to quality and weight issues. D2D in workload should address quality. Delivery methods should address weight thus removing the cap.
If we do nothing, delivery methods will arrive and the cap will go. RM will automate D2D and in the long run I believe we would lose out. I suppose that is the debatable part, I'm not sure, it is my opinion.
It is true that D2D will probably be automated eventually anyhow but we will hopefully be getting the delivery supplement and hopefully it will be higher.

[fishtank]

banner 18 wrote
Many part timers and those with many d.p.s are going to take a hit, financially in the short term

I love this playground pseudo-economics
If you take a pay freeze last year and a pay cut this year and it takes you until 2012(IF you get the final 3.5%) just to get your earnings back to 2008 levels that is not a short-term hit banner.
The world has not stopped while you wait to get your earnings back to 2008 levels because prices are at well....2012 levels NOT 2008 levels.
It is a long term pay cut in real terms that some members will never truly recover from.

It is case of, if the D2D is to come into workload, this is the fairest system. Whether D2D needs to come into workload is probably up for debate. I am of the opinion that since the work all paid hours mantra from 2007 p&m, then all work should be in paid hours. To still pay differing amounts to delivery staff based on d.p.s will then be unfair.
If you are arguing that D2D can be in workload and paid as now then I think you are wrong. If you are arguing to maintain the current system, that is a different story.
The hype is that the current system is unsustainable. The reality is that RM want to gain new revenues from D2D and cannot under the current system due to quality and weight issues. D2D in workload should address quality. Delivery methods should address weight thus removing the cap.
If we do nothing, delivery methods will arrive and the cap will go. RM will automate D2D and in the long run I believe we would lose out. I suppose that is the debatable part, I'm not sure, it is my opinion.
It is true that D2D will probably be automated eventually anyhow but we will hopefully be getting the delivery supplement and hopefully it will be higher.

I am not arguing against D2D into workload but what i have always argued and what you have pointed out yourself is that the major beneficiary of this is Royal Mail themselves.Not as the CWU would have everybody believe the ordinary member.
That should have resulted in a strong negotiating position for the union but they have managed to bargain this away for a pay cut.
Coupled with the fact that they have failed in their own promise to get ESA incorparated into basic pay is yet another insult.
But to try to then convince members that this is a "short-term hit" when in fact in real terms it is anything but is in my opinion a step too far.

We have in my opinion sold our ESA,our D2D,our defined delivery span and our shorter saturdays for a bag of magic beans.
We will see in a year or so whether we get a beanstalk or just more of the same old weeds.

[Big Daz]

a quick question if anyone can answer for me

if the 'delivery' supplement has nothing to with d2d's etc and is only a payment for delivery why is it pro rata??

what I mean is the difference between f/t and p/t is f/t do more inside work, the delivery part is the same for all f/t or p/t - so if the supplement is for delivery surely we all do the same amount of that - so why should the payments be different?

It is for OPGs working in or tagged to a delivery office, it is not for delivery working OPGS but for all in the D.O.

As TBT said its based on contracted hours due to being a supplement/assigned allowance to basic pay which is paid by the hour.

[banner18]

banner 18 wrote
Many part timers and those with many d.p.s are going to take a hit, financially in the short term

I love this playground pseudo-economics
If you take a pay freeze last year and a pay cut this year and it takes you until 2012(IF you get the final 3.5%) just to get your earnings back to 2008 levels that is not a short-term hit banner.
The world has not stopped while you wait to get your earnings back to 2008 levels because prices are at well....2012 levels NOT 2008 levels.
It is a long term pay cut in real terms that some members will never truly recover from.

It is case of, if the D2D is to come into workload, this is the fairest system. Whether D2D needs to come into workload is probably up for debate. I am of the opinion that since the work all paid hours mantra from 2007 p&m, then all work should be in paid hours. To still pay differing amounts to delivery staff based on d.p.s will then be unfair.
If you are arguing that D2D can be in workload and paid as now then I think you are wrong. If you are arguing to maintain the current system, that is a different story.
The hype is that the current system is unsustainable. The reality is that RM want to gain new revenues from D2D and cannot under the current system due to quality and weight issues. D2D in workload should address quality. Delivery methods should address weight thus removing the cap.
If we do nothing, delivery methods will arrive and the cap will go. RM will automate D2D and in the long run I believe we would lose out. I suppose that is the debatable part, I'm not sure, it is my opinion.
It is true that D2D will probably be automated eventually anyhow but we will hopefully be getting the delivery supplement and hopefully it will be higher.

I am not arguing against D2D into workload but what i have always argued and what you have pointed out yourself is that the major beneficiary of this is Royal Mail themselves.Not as the CWU would have everybody believe the ordinary member.
That should have resulted in a strong negotiating position for the union but they have managed to bargain this away for a pay cut.
Coupled with the fact that they have failed in their own promise to get ESA incorparated into basic pay is yet another insult.
But to try to then convince members that this is a "short-term hit" when in fact in real terms it is anything but is in my opinion a step too far.

We have in my opinion sold our ESA,our D2D,our defined delivery span and our shorter saturdays for a bag of magic beans.
We will see in a year or so whether we get a beanstalk or just more of the same old weeds.

You are overlooking two factors.

1. The extra cost to RM to absorb D2D into workload.
2. The increases in the delivery supplement, hopefully I will admit, in between now and then.

[dvbuk55]

You are overlooking two factors.

1. The extra cost to RM to absorb D2D into workload.
2. The increases in the delivery supplement, hopefully I will admit, in between now and then.banner18
Online



1. The extra cost being what exactly - an indeterminate until the increase in D2D takes place and as such will generate profit.

2. The increase in the delivery supplement will be exactly 28p per week between 2011 and 2012 - try not to let it change your way of life.

[fishtank]

You are overlooking two factors.

1. The extra cost to RM to absorb D2D into workload.
2. The increases in the delivery supplement, hopefully I will admit, in between now and then.

Not overlooking banner but not overestimating either.

1. I already prep my D2D in royal Mail's time so why would i have any extra time built into my workload to accomadate it?
It may look good on paper but the reality is instead of 1.30 prep i will get 1.15 prep and 15mins D2D prep total cost to RM....zero.
As for call rates it will see an increase of call rate of under 3% and how will the initial call rate be assessed?

2. The increase in supplement is....zero this year...1.5% or 31p in 2011 and maybe...3.5% or 73p in 2012

[banner18]

You are overlooking two factors.

1. The extra cost to RM to absorb D2D into workload.
2. The increases in the delivery supplement, hopefully I will admit, in between now and then.

Not overlooking banner but not overestimating either.

1. I already prep my D2D in royal Mail's time so why would i have any extra time built into my workload to accomadate it?
It may look good on paper but the reality is instead of 1.30 prep i will get 1.15 prep and 15mins D2D prep total cost to RM....zero.
As for call rates it will see an increase of call rate of under 3% and how will the initial call rate be assessed?

2. The increase in supplement is....zero this year...1.5% or 31p in 2011 and maybe...3.5% or 73p in 2012

I take your points. The cost to RM will not be zero in my office I can tell you.

I totally agree that RM are going to use D2D as a cash cow. They are going to put a little in to get a hell of a lot out. Is that so wrong for a business in a commercial environment? Remember, RM are not screwing you with the current monies, they will still be paid, just distributed differently. You will not be doing any extra work as people are saying. If D2D go crazy, doesn't matter, just do your hours.
How would you distribute the D2D money and bring them into workload?

If the current D2D system is ok then why don't you argue for the same with mail? If you prep and deliver more mail, you get paid more? Would that be fair?