If there is one reason for part timers to vote no!

[Martin Walsh]

But FT means they will have to give you the full money and not pro rata........

No pro-rata means that even if a part-timer works full time hours, he still only gets part-time pay for his d2d. This is now effectively a 2-tier workforce. What gets me is that either the union didn't realise the implications of this - in which case they are forgiven and they have to go back to the negotiating table to sort it out - or they did, and they have made a deliberate calculation to split the workforce, choosing to secure full-time jobs at the expense of part-timers' status.

Roy that is simply not true. If someone is made up to full time they will then get a new contract which means they have a full time contact and then are paid the rate for full time staff. It is not a two tier workforce , when we had nda part timers were paid the same rate when allowances changed to a 52 week rate they the got that allowance pro rata. Remember under the shorter working week the new hourly rate based on year 1 will be £8.91 as opposed to £8.69 an increase of 22pence per hour. So for someone on a 20 hour contact they will recive an increase in pay of £4.40 over and above the wage wise. For someone on 30 hours they will recieve an extra increase of £6 per week from the shorter working week. Obviously if you have the shorter working week in year 2 then you will recieve more money as the pay rate increases by 1.4% and the supplement goes up by the same.

So there is not a two tier workforce. If you gave the supplement equally to full timers and part timers then there are estimated to be 2000 staff either on a 1 hour contract and saturday only who will get the same as a full timer who works 40 hours. Plus the part timer will get an additonal pay increase from the shorter working week.

[dvbuk55]

I don't know if dingo is being deliberately obtuse or just refusing to see the obvious.

A part timer who does full time hours does not receive a full time contract for the week or weeks he does a full time cover BUT he will only receive the supplement and any payment for D2D pro rata - so in effect he is working full time on a part time contract, it may not happen in your world but then you don't have 40% part time staff covering full time duties on a regular basis.

We can perhaps see that the advice the negotiators received was erroneous.

[Martin Walsh]

I don't know if dingo is being deliberately obtuse or just refusing to see the obvious.

A part timer who does full time hours does not receive a full time contract for the week or weeks he does a full time cover BUT he will only receive the supplement and any payment for D2D pro rata - so in effect he is working full time on a part time contract, it may not happen in your world but then you don't have 40% part time staff covering full time duties on a regular basis.

We can perhaps see that the advice the negotiators received was erroneous.

There is a simple answer if a part timer is always doing full time hours get his or her a full time job. Its a no brainer. Surely if any rep has this goin on then if they cant get it resolved then put in a stage 2 disagreement and the area rep will get involved.

[dvbuk55]

I don't know if dingo is being deliberately obtuse or just refusing to see the obvious.

A part timer who does full time hours does not receive a full time contract for the week or weeks he does a full time cover BUT he will only receive the supplement and any payment for D2D pro rata - so in effect he is working full time on a part time contract, it may not happen in your world but then you don't have 40% part time staff covering full time duties on a regular basis.

We can perhaps see that the advice the negotiators received was erroneous.

There is a simple answer if a part timer is always doing full time hours get his or her a full time job. Its a no brainer. Surely if any rep has this goin on then if they cant get it resolved then put in a stage 2 disagreement and the area rep will get involved.

Dingo have you experienced an office with 40% part timers? There will be two weeks here, two weeks there - if the rep complains they'll just use two other part timers - only too eager to get the extra hours in pay - this isn't a straight forward issue by any stretch of the imagination. I can understand how offices with practically no part timers can't grasp how part time members feel totally discriminated against under this agreement. Surely there was a better way to disburse the available monies. The only reason why this money is not being incorporated into basic pay is the pension issue and that is not the members fault and that issue should have been dealt with long ago.

If it is a yes vote there will be trouble ahead in the offices where there WILL be two tiers of employees doing the same work.

[clashcityrocker]

There will be two weeks here, two weeks there - if the rep complains they'll just use two other part timers - only too eager to get the extra hours in pay

Perhaps if they stood together and refused for a week/2 weeks then something would be done.
While the workers are happy to stab each other in the back, is it any wonder RM are happy to let them get on with it?

[fishtank]

There will be two weeks here, two weeks there - if the rep complains they'll just use two other part timers - only too eager to get the extra hours in pay

Perhaps if they stood together and refused for a week/2 weeks then something would be done.
While the workers are happy to stab each other in the back, is it any wonder RM are happy to let them get on with it?

It's more a case of putting food on the table CCR than stabbing people in the back besides if you use the words "stand together and refuse" in the same sentence you run the risk of accusations of unofficial industrial action.
There is however nothing wrong in balloting all your members for a work to rule however i wouldn't fancy you'll get a lot of support from branch over it.

[dvbuk55]

There will be two weeks here, two weeks there - if the rep complains they'll just use two other part timers - only too eager to get the extra hours in pay

Perhaps if they stood together and refused for a week/2 weeks then something would be done.
While the workers are happy to stab each other in the back, is it any wonder RM are happy to let them get on with it?

Stab each other in the back? Is that seriously how you look at a part time worker who is striving to get a full time contract to support his/her family, maybe not even full time just another 5 hours a week perhaps? Perhaps they took buy down and just want a few extra pounds because they are going on holiday or for a present. Maybe they are gently pressured into it because of resource problems. No wonder we are in the position we are if yours is the general attitude.

[clashcityrocker]

if you use the words "stand together and refuse" in the same sentence you run the risk of accusations of unofficial industrial action.

You could use different words like "sorry I can't this week "
It's just semantics.
I've noticed managers don't like doing deliveries.
And they like having to get managers in from different offices to help even less.

[fishtank]

if you use the words "stand together and refuse" in the same sentence you run the risk of accusations of unofficial industrial action.

You could use different words like "sorry I can't this week "
It's just semantics.
I've noticed managers don't like doing deliveries.
And they like having to get managers in from different offices to help even less.

The issue is not in the words CCR but in the organisation.
If one person says "sorry I can't this week " that is acceptable.
If all 40 part-timers say "sorry I can't this week" that is unofficial industrial action.

[Wiggins79]

Here is what happened in our office this week: Our holiday relief was suspended 2 weeks ago on a ridiculous charge blown up out of all proportion (but I won't go into that here). Since then we have had no permenant cover for holidays. Each day, someone different form a different office will turn up, not help with the primary sorting, expect the people who know all the rounds (me-usually as I'm the day-off relief) to help them bag-up and tell them where addresses arethey can't find etc. Sometimes, we get 2-3 people turning up to do the round that needs covering, 1 to sort it, 1 to bag it up, and another to deliver- I kid you not. Then by the end of Wednesday there was a pile of undelivered D2D's (3 this week as per usual in our office for the entire 7 years I've been working there). All the polling cards, and addressed election material to virtually every house (Labour this week). Due to the fact I cover 4 duties, one of which has been collapsed 5 weeks ago, it had been arranged (unbeknownst to me) for me to do my regular covering of the duty's day-off and also an extra day when I would normally have been doing the round that was collapsed. Then I was told that all the polling cards, and all the election material HAD to be delivered before the end of Saturday. Oh, and the D2D's, and I had to count how many polling cards there were and how many election leaflets there were, otherwise I would be in breach of my contract for wilful delay of mail. I had 2 days to do all this. I have a 28 hour contract. Even desregarding the election crapola, the mail has been obscenely heavy this week, as bad as if not worse than Christmas with both letters, flats and parcels at ridiculous levels. Yesterday from a 7Am start I finsihed at 17.10, and today after a 6.30AM start I finished at 15.20 I'd already gone over on the other 2 days (something I rarely used to do until they collapsed the duty and dished it out to all the other rounds with no extra hours put in). Basically, I've done 2 weeks worth of work in 2 days. I have 8 hrs overtime this week- 8 BLEEDING HOURS!
Obviously, I'm utterly narked off, but then to think that under this stinking deal on offer, despite delivering all the D2D's to over 450 houses (and bear in mind it could be up to 8 lots in the future) I'd only be getting paid my D2D supplement pro-rata? It makes my veins bulge in complete and utter rage. This kind of crap is constantly going on in our office- and I suspect in a lot of other sub-offices as well, and before you say "get your rep on it" our rep is universally despised for being a mangement arse-lick who only does things to help himself.
I don't know what situation other part-timers are in, but as for me I to the exact same job as everyone esle in the office- I don't get to come in later and just go out with a bag of mail already sorted for me. I have to be in at the same time as the full-timers, and do the exact same job, but because my contract is a cruddy 28 hours I will be totally shafted by this agreement.

[el_cartero]

to be fair id hate to be full time atleast im only in the office for 45 minutes

[proper postie]

Here is what happened in our office this week: Our holiday relief was suspended 2 weeks ago on a ridiculous charge blown up out of all proportion (but I won't go into that here). Since then we have had no permenant cover for holidays. Each day, someone different form a different office will turn up, not help with the primary sorting, expect the people who know all the rounds (me-usually as I'm the day-off relief) to help them bag-up and tell them where addresses arethey can't find etc. Sometimes, we get 2-3 people turning up to do the round that needs covering, 1 to sort it, 1 to bag it up, and another to deliver- I kid you not. Then by the end of Wednesday there was a pile of undelivered D2D's (3 this week as per usual in our office for the entire 7 years I've been working there). All the polling cards, and addressed election material to virtually every house (Labour this week). Due to the fact I cover 4 duties, one of which has been collapsed 5 weeks ago, it had been arranged (unbeknownst to me) for me to do my regular covering of the duty's day-off and also an extra day when I would normally have been doing the round that was collapsed. Then I was told that all the polling cards, and all the election material HAD to be delivered before the end of Saturday. Oh, and the D2D's, and I had to count how many polling cards there were and how many election leaflets there were, otherwise I would be in breach of my contract for wilful delay of mail. I had 2 days to do all this. I have a 28 hour contract. Even desregarding the election crapola, the mail has been obscenely heavy this week, as bad as if not worse than Christmas with both letters, flats and parcels at ridiculous levels. Yesterday from a 7Am start I finsihed at 17.10, and today after a 6.30AM start I finished at 15.20 I'd already gone over on the other 2 days (something I rarely used to do until they collapsed the duty and dished it out to all the other rounds with no extra hours put in). Basically, I've done 2 weeks worth of work in 2 days. I have 8 hrs overtime this week- 8 BLEEDING HOURS!
Obviously, I'm utterly narked off, but then to think that under this stinking deal on offer, despite delivering all the D2D's to over 450 houses (and bear in mind it could be up to 8 lots in the future) I'd only be getting paid my D2D supplement pro-rata? It makes my veins bulge in complete and utter rage. This kind of crap is constantly going on in our office- and I suspect in a lot of other sub-offices as well, and before you say "get your rep on it" our rep is universally despised for being a mangement arse-lick who only does things to help himself.
I don't know what situation other part-timers are in, but as for me I to the exact same job as everyone esle in the office- I don't get to come in later and just go out with a bag of mail already sorted for me. I have to be in at the same time as the full-timers, and do the exact same job, but because my contract is a cruddy 28 hours I will be totally shafted by this agreement.

As much as that's a shitty situation (and a hard one to read-spacing my man,spacing!) you were within your rights to refuse the d2d.The 20% should be filled out daily,and if this isn't picked up by management at frame checks then it's a management problem,not yours.

You could have refused them.

[Martin Walsh]

Fishtank and whats wrong with that if it brings something to an head. Look if a delivery office manager is spending well above the tenplate for the office and using asking for part timers to work above their hours then the local rep must argue that the hours should be put into the office tenplate and if that then means that the most senior part timers are offered either more hours or a full time job.

I have to say this is janet and john stuff ether the office is working to the actual office tenplate or its not and if it is not then the hours which are being paid over the top should be made permanent .

[Wiggins79]

As much as that's a shitty situation (and a hard one to read-spacing my man,spacing!) you were within your rights to refuse the d2d.The 20% should be filled out daily,and if this isn't picked up by management at frame checks then it's a management problem,not yours.

You could have refused them.

Sorry about the spacing and spelling. I was typing in an angry fever.
This is the thing though- as a sub-office there is no management to check D2D's or anything else really. We never have WTLL.
In fact, on the Saturday before Mothering Sunday, one of the duties didn't get delivered at all. Parcels, cards, letters 1st and 2nd, nothing. The regular had hit their hours at 7AM in the morning and cut-off and gone home. When we phoned management to inform them, the person who answered was only a covering manager, but she said it wasn't a problem as the regular manager had told her that if the person cut-off who said she was going to cut-off , then all the rest of the office had agreed to deliver that round!
It was the first we had heard of it- and bear in mind that everyone in the office was going to go into overtime simply doing their own rounds, without another on top. I won't repeat what was generally said by us all, but it basically meant no-one had any intention of delivering another round on a Saturday afternoon. The result being the entire round sat undelivered, and this was with full managements knowledge. I bet none of them get suspended for wilful delay.

Sorry- this is going off topic with my rant, but my point is I am in full agreement about part-timers getting the dirty end of the stick in this agreement. And as for all the talk of trust and going forward together- what an absolute joke.

[fishtank]

Fishtank and whats wrong with that if it brings something to an head. Look if a delivery office manager is spending well above the tenplate for the office and using asking for part timers to work above their hours then the local rep must argue that the hours should be put into the office tenplate and if that then means that the most senior part timers are offered either more hours or a full time job.

I have to say this is janet and john stuff ether the office is working to the actual office tenplate or its not and if it is not then the hours which are being paid over the top should be made permanent .

Been there done that got the t-shirt is that not the saying.
Result.....Now less hours for P/T staff more hours absorbed by full-timers not an ideal result.
Janet and John were not best pleased as they are both part-time.
Dingo if you believe that "office tenplates" actually exist or have any real meaning outside your own rarified world then i suggest you get out more.