What happens If its a No Result

[Martin Walsh]

Dingo,

Is that, "no pay protection applies", or is it, "no, pay protection applies"?

Will the duty revisions be classed as management-led initiatives?

There are no changes in this agreement to pay protection. So pay protection and mtsf applies to all revisions.

[MinisterofCucumber]

Dingo,

MtSF states:

"Eligibility for pay protection will occur only where an employee is displaced and loses a level of pay as a consequence of a business driven change. Employees will not be eligible where they elect to change shift as part of a normal resourcing process or where individuals elect to participate in a re-sign voluntarily".

http://www.cwunorthern.co.uk/MTSF09.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Will the revisions be voluntary or compulsory?

[BELIAL]

Dream on !! For someone who didt lose a penny last year and didt have a one day strike you talk a good fight.
Disappointing
The so called bureaucrats you refer to persuming me , lovejoy do more for the members then you will do in a lifetime. We reprsent them at appeals , ETs , we meet them and we attempt to resolve their issues. We are entitled to our opinion as much as anyone else but we like everyone else have just one vote.

Nobody said you weren't ,but equally MoC claims to have fought for gains

This agreement was never about just door to door . Royal Mail under this labour govenment had to introduce deregulation into the industry years before any other european country. Downstream access by passes the outward mail centre and has meant that the number of mail centres could be reduced. In additon a lot of companies have down traded their mail to save money. Obviously the recesssion has hit the postal market. Your right that E subsitution has also had an effect as some banks no longer send out statments and insist on emails.

So why ,given the massive job losses involved, have our union so obviously failed to oppose this scam?

Some posters will dispute this but traffic levels have gone down , I come from an office where we used to have 300 K in 1988 on the old first delivery now that office has just over 90 000 . Of course that office now has a lot less jobs doing that work.

Yep ,biggest economic downturn since the Great Depression but with job losses to match

Royal Mails business plan is to achieve 300 million profit after year 3 . Last year they achieve 50 million profit in Royal Mail letters. But just a small traffic drop will mean that plan does not achieve that.

So is RM a service that facilitates the profit making activities of others? Or does it exist as a profit driven commercial entity in it's own right and as such can raise prices to the point of maximum saturation/sustainability?( the flip side being ,how much can it cut from it's costs,ie your pay )

[Big Daz]

Dingo,

MtSF states:

"Eligibility for pay protection will occur only where an employee is displaced and loses a level of pay as a consequence of a business driven change. Employees will not be eligible where they elect to change shift as part of a normal resourcing process or where individuals elect to participate in a re-sign voluntarily".http://www.cwunorthern.co.uk/MTSF09.pdf

Will the revisions be voluntary or compulsory?

The revisions are compulsory, 2 per office, pay protection applies, look at the wording of what you have posted.

Employees will not be eligible where they elect to change shift as part of a normal resourcing process or where individuals elect to participate in a re-sign voluntarily

[MinisterofCucumber]

Big Daz,

The proposed agreement states "all employees will need to recognise that in order to provide innovative attendance patterns and duty structures they will need to embrace change which may mean an alteration to attendance times".

I take this to mean that the revisions will not be compulsory but pressure will be put on individuals to voluntarily accept changes to their duty times which means that pay protection will not apply.

Big Daz, I can see that you would not let management trick your members into signing something that proves they have voluntarily agreed to change their duty times but I can see this happening in other offices. The rep will agree the revisions and the first the staff will know about it is when the new duty list goes up. The rep will tell staff they have to accept the changes but if anyone asks about pay protection, management will claim that the revisions are voluntary. Management are counting on the fact that only a handful of CWU reps fully understand MtSF.

[Martin Walsh]

Daz and Minster I think your find MTSF 2 covers this issue under the heading of Resourcing process where pay protection applies.

This process details where resigns are taken into account as a result of agreed revisons. MTSF was achieved under the pay and major change agreement of 2003 and remains unchanged with this agreement.

[Big Daz]

Big Daz,

The proposed agreement states "all employees will need to recognise that in order to provide innovative attendance patterns and duty structures they will need to embrace change which may mean an alteration to attendance times".

I take this to mean that the revisions will not be compulsory but pressure will be put on individuals to voluntarily accept changes to their duty times which means that pay protection will not apply.

Big Daz, I can see that you would not let management trick your members into signing something that proves they have voluntarily agreed to change their duty times but I can see this happening in other offices. The rep will agree the revisions and the first the staff will know about it is when the new duty list goes up. The rep will tell staff they have to accept the changes but if anyone asks about pay protection, management will claim that the revisions are voluntary. Management are counting on the fact that only a handful of CWU reps fully understand MtSF.

No such thing as a voluntary revision, a revision is a revision. Revisons take place due to operational need. The new planning values and delivery methods means there is a operational case for revsion work in every D.O.

Its very simple, if you choose of your own free will to come off of your duty then any extra payments that duty attracts will no longer be payable to you. If your duty ceases to exist or is allready chosen when you gets to your turn in re pick (duty in repick due to major change) then you get pay protection. Area reps oversee local revisions and should pick up anything a local rep might over look.


The process of revision you describe is totally alien to me. If that happens in any D.O I would be gobsmacked!! Updates at WTLL have allways been given at my D.O by the rep and DOM/planner, all info displayed, local vote takes place, if a yes vote proceed with implementation. FTD SDD GEO ROUTE all followed that process at my D.O.

[Steviea34]

Big Daz,

The proposed agreement states "all employees will need to recognise that in order to provide innovative attendance patterns and duty structures they will need to embrace change which may mean an alteration to attendance times".

I take this to mean that the revisions will not be compulsory but pressure will be put on individuals to voluntarily accept changes to their duty times which means that pay protection will not apply.

Big Daz, I can see that you would not let management trick your members into signing something that proves they have voluntarily agreed to change their duty times but I can see this happening in other offices. The rep will agree the revisions and the first the staff will know about it is when the new duty list goes up. The rep will tell staff they have to accept the changes but if anyone asks about pay protection, management will claim that the revisions are voluntary. Management are counting on the fact that only a handful of CWU reps fully understand MtSF.

No such thing as a voluntary revision, a revision is a revision. Revisons take place due to operational need. The new planning values and delivery methods means there is a operational case for revsion work in every D.O.

Its very simple, if you choose of your own free will to come off of your duty then any extra payments that duty attracts will no longer be payable to you. If your duty ceases to exist or is allready chosen when you gets to your turn in re pick (duty in repick due to major change) then you get pay protection. Area reps oversee local revisions and should pick up anything a local rep might over look.


The process of revision you describe is totally alien to me. If that happens in any D.O I would be gobsmacked!! Updates at WTLL have allways been given at my D.O by the rep and DOM/planner, all info displayed, local vote takes place, if a yes vote proceed with implementation. FTD SDD GEO ROUTE all followed that process at my D.O.

And remember "family friendly" may not fit in with the unit plans, so you may find yourself working at a neighbouring unit

[Steviea34]

Yes ofcourse, that's what the whole process is about. The Agreement will be re-negotiated and again put before PEC and a members vote once it is more agreeable to members. It's taken a long long time for the first vote to occur but we are restructuring a hundreads year old buisness here.

Lets hope ACAS is involved in these too

[MinisterofCucumber]

Big Daz said:

"Its very simple, if you choose of your own free will to come off of your duty then any extra payments that duty attracts will no longer be payable to you. If your duty ceases to exist or is allready chosen when you gets to your turn in re pick (duty in repick due to major change) then you get pay protection. Area reps oversee local revisions and should pick up anything a local rep might over look."

My rep, area rep and unit manager didn't know this and did 3 revisions without paying pay protection. It was only after I discovered MtSF and the grievance procedure on the intranet that we managed to recover our money. The preference exercise outlined in MtSF was used in the last revision but the parties still claim they were not aware of pay protection despite the fact that ex-safenet staff were paid pay protection. The union has enough evidence to pass on to the police to charge our principal unit manager with fraud but have tried to sweep this affair under the carpet. I believe the reason for this is to protect the area rep who has since become a Territorial Counters rep and is also a Labour Councillor.

If the CWU were to bring about the imprisonment of a deceitful manager, this might shock other managers into following correct procedures.

[BELIAL]

Big Daz said:

"Its very simple, if you choose of your own free will to come off of your duty then any extra payments that duty attracts will no longer be payable to you. If your duty ceases to exist or is allready chosen when you gets to your turn in re pick (duty in repick due to major change) then you get pay protection. Area reps oversee local revisions and should pick up anything a local rep might over look."

My rep, area rep and unit manager didn't know this and did 3 revisions without paying pay protection. It was only after I discovered MtSF and the grievance procedure on the intranet that we managed to recover our money. The preference exercise outlined in MtSF was used in the last revision but the parties still claim they were not aware of pay protection despite the fact that ex-safenet staff were paid pay protection. The union has enough evidence to pass on to the police to charge our principal unit manager with fraud but have tried to sweep this affair under the carpet. I believe the reason for this is to protect the area rep who has since become a Territorial Counters rep and is also a Labour Councillor.

If the CWU were to bring about the imprisonment of a deceitful manager, this might shock other managers into following correct procedures.

Well there is the perfect system ,black and white and freely available for public consumption,which is A1 ,ticks all the boxes and is totally above reproach. Then there is what really goes on But since the wage cutters OWN reality you are sort of a bit off message if you raise an objection

[el_cartero]

apprently if its its a NO they will still stop our d2d payments :\

[MinisterofCucumber]

apprently if its its a NO they will still stop our d2d payments :\

That sounds like a rumour released threat.

[dvbuk55]

apprently if its its a NO they will still stop our d2d payments :\

That sounds like a rumour released threat.

There have been one or two of those during this campaign Minister - desperation breeds determination to sow misinformation.

[flaminmoses]

we will argue for saturdays to be "family friendly" like they keep saying they are.....ie.early finnish on a saturday

and for door to door payments to be paid per item.

they change these they have a deal with me.