How can members make a fully informed decision

[peterloo]

I cant speak for the other 157 maybe they all read it on-line for all i know i hope so,what i do know is what lovejoy said that he estimates a good ninety % will not read the agreement and i would not argue with that. Not all posties are like the ones
on here who debate and scrutinise work practices and agreements some just rely on the union to check the fine print. Not great but there you go. I genuinly believe it wil not make a blind bit of difference to those high % of members if they get the
agreement through door or not

The problem is cackhill...How can are we or more importantly how can HQ decide just who wants to read the agreement and who doesn't?
I know of many members who have had a quick look through the copy in our office but are expecting to be able to read the full agreement in their own time when it comes through their letterbox.
That is their democratic right.

"when CWU members vote on the new National Agreement, they do so on the most informed basis possible."
Dave Ward
Deputy General Secretary (P)

sorry for the delay went out with the we bairns,pretty sure i have covered all your points in previous posts but here we go,
HQ dont decide who reads the agreement individual members do if there was a shroud of secrecy about the agreement i would understand. If you have the capabilities to read an 80 page agreement you have more than enough to get hold of a copy of the document.
In previous agreements we have had a covering letter explaining the sailiant points and advice why they are recommending the deal but that is normally it. You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink

[drb]

Very true Cackhill.I think they really rely on their unit reps to do their thinking for them in respect of agreements,(local and national). This is why the union has/is been the enemy to the business.The fact that they are in the workplace,(or some anyway).

People tend to listen to them,and trust,rather then the actual employer. If you want "in" on ths sort of stuff members REALLY need to make the effort.

Due to this agreement,if you decide to,(and it would have to be an informed decision),come out of the union,bear in mind that it would make us weaker. I personaly hated the Way Forward,but I didn't come out of the union for exactly that reason.

It's a shame that only a minority come onto this forum.Some offices should see what other offices have to put up with,(those without union presence).

[fishtank]

I have yet to hear any argument against sending the membership the full agreement other than..

A) Cost...a ridiculous argument given the resources ploughed into obtaining a YES vote.
B) The members won't read it.....a little presumption mixed with a little arrogance and as i said earlier..... who are we to say?
C) They can get a copy elsewhere.....rather embarrassing and a fine state of affairs for the Communication Workers Union.

[quote]In previous agreements we have had a covering letter explaining the sailiant points and advice why they are recommending the deal but that is normally it. You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink[quote]

Very democratic.
Who's idea of salient?

[drb]

I don't disagree Fishtank.However during the national briefings I asked members if they wanted to come.Only one volunteered,(and he took annual leave to do so). If you find this quite frustrating....welcome to my world!!!!!!!!!!!

[dvbuk55]

sorry for the delay went out with the we bairns,pretty sure i have covered all your points in previous posts but here we go,
HQ dont decide who reads the agreement individual members do if there was a shroud of secrecy about the agreement i would understand. If you have the capabilities to read an 80 page agreement you have more than enough to get hold of a copy of the document.
In previous agreements we have had a covering letter explaining the sailiant points and advice why they are recommending the deal but that is normally it. You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink

HQ should provide the agreement in entirety not edited highlights. They don't have to decide who reads or does not read it, they just have to provide it. After saying that this is the most important agreement in industry in the last 50 or 60 years, that took 4 months to "negotiate", that has far reaching effects in our working lives and has many imponderables, that a few highlights cuts it? Well most of us weren't alive 50/60 years ago and we certainly weren't working so what went on in previous agreements really has no validity in this argument.

Why the reluctance to give the whole membership the opportunity to read it? If they are looking to cut costs I can think of a way to cut a couple of hundred k in no time at all. Now what is it that is the last refuge for scoundrels, I always thought it was politics but I'm beginning to wonder.

[andy2007]

I couldn't agree more with DVBUK55 and Fishtank. True, the deal has been available on the 'Net for some time. But there are some who don't have Internet access. Yes, it is possible for people like us, to print a copy off for Collegues who can't get it for themselves. And if neccessary, you could go to your local Library to download it (I seriously doubt that theres anyone left who doesn't have a Computer, even if they're not on the 'Net). But really, the CWU should have taken the initiative. And sent it out to everyone, just to make sure.

Yes, there are many people (probably the majority) who can't be bothered to read it. But that doesn't mean that everyone shouldn't have the option of reading it. At least that way, no-one's got any excuse for not knowing what they're voting on.

[janitor]

I like to keep all my agreements, it's handy to prove to the DOM or the unit rep that the agreement didn't say what they are trying to tell me it say's have already had to print out part of the agreement to prove to the unit rep he was talking crap. So it would be nice if the union sent a copy to every member, as a few in our office have only seen whats been printed in the press.

[andy2007]

Just tell those who have the Internet, where to download it from. And so long as there aren't too many wanting them, just print out copies for any who don't have the Internet. If there are a lot. Then just ask your Rep to do photocopies for all who need them. It's vital that all members get a copy in time to read it properly, before they vote.

I keep all my agreements, and any other useful info, on a Memory Stick too. So I've always got it to hand. I got the idea from one of my Reps. It's come in handy, many times already.

[welshy808]

Surely to send every member in Royal Mail Letters a copy of the full agreement would not only be cheaper than the Pamphlets, inserts, DVDs and letters etc. it would also give them all the information they would need to decide which way to vote.

I forgot that would also remove all the spin that the Negotiators need to sell this deal to the membership.
The fact that HQ will not reveal the full proposal to the membership is disgusting, there are no other words for it.

Some of those on this forum who are actively promoting this agreement to their credit think that every member needs to be given a full copy of the document.

[Steviea34]

Surely to send every member in Royal Mail Letters a copy of the full agreement would not only be cheaper than the Pamphlets, inserts, DVDs and letters etc. it would also give them all the information they would need to decide which way to vote.

I forgot that would also remove all the spin that the Negotiators need to sell this deal to the membership.
The fact that HQ will not reveal the full proposal to the membership is disgusting, there are no other words for it.

Some of those on this forum who are actively promoting this agreement to their credit think that every member needs to be given a full copy of the document.

Just heard a rumor -the dvd is either Jim Carey's LIAR, LIAR or DIRTY ROTTEN SCOUNDRELS, anybody got any others to lighten
the day

[mucker]

Not all posties are like the ones
on here who debate and scrutinise work practices and agreements some just rely on the union to check the fine print.

and there lies the problem,i dont need to spell it out do i

[Stormproof]

If they are sending out a dvd why can't they send a disc with the full agreement on it aswell.

[fishtank]

Just heard a rumor -the dvd is either Jim Carey's LIAR, LIAR or DIRTY ROTTEN SCOUNDRELS, anybody got any others to lighten
the day

How about DEAD MAN WALKING? although i don't know if it means us or the CWU.

[Steviea34]

If they are sending out a dvd why can't they send a disc with the full agreement on it aswell.

Good point, surely enough memory to hold

[mucker]

Just heard a rumor -the dvd is either Jim Carey's LIAR, LIAR or DIRTY ROTTEN SCOUNDRELS, anybody got any others to lighten
the day

We tell lies when we are afraid... afraid of what we don't know, afraid of what others will think, afraid of what will be found out about us. But every time we tell a lie, the thing that we fear grows stronger.