DVBUK 55's VIEWS ON WHAT HAPPENS IF IT IS A NO

[lovejoy]

.Come on Dvbuk I know you are on the ropes tonight and dodging points better my beloved Scunthorpe but no need to stoop...

These questions - the ones you were going to answer later - well nows your chance



Well I can imagine your sycophantic adoring fans will be PMing you - but just to put the record straight lovejoy here's a few questions you have not answered, in fact you haven't answered any of them - merely spouted the party line:

What are your credentials? - you questioned mine and I answered honestly - I do actually work in a DO and have carried out every job there except manager over the last 20 odd years.
The 75/25 split is to be policed nationally, it is currently 79/21 so does that mean job losses, and how is the figure to be arrived at?
If it means job losses how is job security a part of this agreement?
Is the projected figure for job losses 24,000 - Higson has already said it will mean fewer jobs - if it means job security for the ones who are left, how about the ones who aren't - do they fall into the category of winners or losers? How long will the ones who are left last after this 3 year agreement?
You conveniently state that there is no payment for D2D but a new delivery supplement - so what replaces the payment for D2D - is it the the remainder of the balance from the loss of the ESA? Which would be £8 pro rata for unlimited workload - or am I misrepresenting the figures - one of us must be?
The revision tools which will determine the workload aren't ready yet - so will they be issued before the ballot?
The fabled 1 in 4 Saturdays maybe even 1 in 3 Matrix, which is as we speak still be worked on, will that be ready before the ballot?
Were any of the advisers to the negotiating team ever delivery officers in recent years or ever or even seen a delivery office?

What on earth do we gain, as rank and file members from delivery offices, from accepting this agreement? And you can use as many words as you like but I need only the one - Nothing.

Oh one last thing - Scunthorpe lost 4-2 to the Seasiders - shame - now I wonder if there is message in that scoreline?

Will answer this eve sometime when I have a couple of mins

[dvbuk55]

In part,there are some good posts in this thread,many questions are asked,many answered,i would say,in part again it is quite informative.
But the other parts are very sarcy.

Ladies,let it not kick of please,let's not try to score points with each other.

That's pretty rich when I have been named by lovejoy as the supposed ONLY detractor of this agreement by the heading - when I published a similar topic heading on the outset of the deal it was "moderated".

I'm not complaining mind, lovejoy is rattled, he is defending his position which will not be affected one iota by this deal in a negative fashion and with the cosy little deals with RM and a structured financial deal...................................................

You can always rely on him to pop out of the woodwork when there are snippets to be told though -

[dvbuk55]

.Come on Dvbuk I know you are on the ropes tonight and dodging points better my beloved Scunthorpe but no need to stoop...

These questions - the ones you were going to answer later - well nows your chance



Well I can imagine your sycophantic adoring fans will be PMing you - but just to put the record straight lovejoy here's a few questions you have not answered, in fact you haven't answered any of them - merely spouted the party line:

What are your credentials? - you questioned mine and I answered honestly - I do actually work in a DO and have carried out every job there except manager over the last 20 odd years.
The 75/25 split is to be policed nationally, it is currently 79/21 so does that mean job losses, and how is the figure to be arrived at?
If it means job losses how is job security a part of this agreement?
Is the projected figure for job losses 24,000 - Higson has already said it will mean fewer jobs - if it means job security for the ones who are left, how about the ones who aren't - do they fall into the category of winners or losers? How long will the ones who are left last after this 3 year agreement?
You conveniently state that there is no payment for D2D but a new delivery supplement - so what replaces the payment for D2D - is it the the remainder of the balance from the loss of the ESA? Which would be £8 pro rata for unlimited workload - or am I misrepresenting the figures - one of us must be?
The revision tools which will determine the workload aren't ready yet - so will they be issued before the ballot?
The fabled 1 in 4 Saturdays maybe even 1 in 3 Matrix, which is as we speak still be worked on, will that be ready before the ballot?
Were any of the advisers to the negotiating team ever delivery officers in recent years or ever or even seen a delivery office?

What on earth do we gain, as rank and file members from delivery offices, from accepting this agreement? And you can use as many words as you like but I need only the one - Nothing.

Oh one last thing - Scunthorpe lost 4-2 to the Seasiders - shame - now I wonder if there is message in that scoreline?

Will answer this eve sometime when I have a couple of mins

You'll be lucky to read the full agreement in 20 minutes lj

[proper postie]

Not true Dvbuk. That section of the pay and mod was over last year and ALL BRANCHES AND UNIT REPS WERE TOLD NOT TO AGREE TO SAVINGS.

1200 offices either agreed to them or let them come in by EA with no reaction.

Yes I agree with you that the national ballot was too slow but one reason for this was that many branches were saying that they were unable to get a yes vote as the members had accepted change.

I know you are struggling but this is off thread isn't it?

'They've negotiated for 4 months, they can negotiate for another 4'....... Oh yes and in the meantime RM will carry on with their unagreed processes, we'll have a Tory Government looking to give us a slap and when the union calls for support units like yours Dvbuk would have done the deal.

I am all for the debate but as I said earlier i think you have been attended a SWP rallies lately because your irresponsible no thought for the consequences views are straight out of their rulebook.

I am off out today so you are safe to go back to your world and encourage others to join you without anyone pulling you up!

Yeah,you're a regular man of the people

You've consistently said you are open for debate without insults yet you have continually had sly digs at Dvbuk.You're transparent as f**k mate.

[fishtank]

Not true Dvbuk. That section of the pay and mod was over last year and ALL BRANCHES AND UNIT REPS WERE TOLD NOT TO AGREE TO SAVINGS.

1200 offices either agreed to them or let them come in by EA with no reaction.

Yes I agree with you that the national ballot was too slow but one reason for this was that many branches were saying that they were unable to get a yes vote as the members had accepted change.

I know you are struggling but this is off thread isn't it?

'They've negotiated for 4 months, they can negotiate for another 4'....... Oh yes and in the meantime RM will carry on with their unagreed processes, we'll have a Tory Government looking to give us a slap and when the union calls for support units like yours Dvbuk would have done the deal.

I am all for the debate but as I said earlier i think you have been attended a SWP rallies lately because your irresponsible no thought for the consequences views are straight out of their rulebook.

I am off out today so you are safe to go back to your world and encourage others to join you without anyone pulling you up!

Yeah,you're a regular man of the people

You've consistently said you are open for debate without insults yet you have continually had sly digs at Dvbuk.You're transparent as f**k mate.

I have to agree i have stayed out of this because i feel this whole thread has been orchestrated with the sole aim of insulting a member of the forum who's views are not in keeping with the party line.
Very cheap,very childish but unfortunately not very surprising.

[dvbuk55]

Thanks for that support lads - maybe you should have pmd me like lovejoys mates

Seriously though I have lovejoys card marked he hasn't any response to the important issues that are outstanding - my one regret is that the Yes vote may well win and will I be disappointed? No of course ........................Yes of course I'll be disappointed but lovejoy has said he will not gloat if it is a Yes - well let me just say if it is a NO vote I will be swinging from the chandelier and gloating like a bast*rd. Well maybe gloating is too strong a word but I will be happy knowing that there is still hope for a fair and equitable agreement and really that is what I would like to see.

[robd]

i overheard a phone call this morning,where the DSM asked our manager "how's it going?"
The manager said "absolutely wonderful,no problems"but the reality was very different.
And i think that sums up this thread,the officials of the CWU appear to surround themselves with 'positive' people who simply relay what they want to hear.
You could be forgiven for thinking that the negativity is down to a few individuals/militants,or even 'serial posters'
like DVBUK,but i asked the question earlier,
"Dingo/Lovejoy,does this leave us a step nearer the management not negotiating with union,as they don't reflect the interests of the membership?"

Whilst Lovejoy replied,i agree with him that RM were moved from their original position of non-negotiation,but the truth is the union are guilty of ignoring their own members interests,and the real problems won't neccesarily come with a no vote,but a yes vote,because even the most senior delivery staff are saying they will leave the CWU,and i'm sure this is replicated across the country.
Personally,i believe the major positive from this agreement is job security,unfortunately it's negated by the fact it'll be an almost impossible task to perform.

[dazzlin72]

Somebody has posted before but there are too many ifs, buts, whens and maybes, about this agreement. There are too many black holes and grey areas, and the Union and RM expect you to just vote yes and then things will be agreed and sorted as you go along. That is no way to put a proposal to the workforce, they have had 4 months of negotiations and should have everything sorted, ironed out, and watertight in that space of time, before offering it to the membership.
A yes vote will just lead to RM riding rough shot as they have done on previous agreements, notably 2007 agreement.

[fishtank]

Somebody has posted before but there are too many ifs, buts, whens and maybes, about this agreement. There are too many black holes and grey areas, and the Union and RM expect you to just vote yes and then things will be agreed and sorted as you go along. That is no way to put a proposal to the workforce, they have had 4 months of negotiations and should have everything sorted, ironed out, and watertight in that space of time, before offering it to the membership.
A yes vote will just lead to RM riding rough shot as they have done on previous agreements, notably 2007 agreement.

[Night Tonic]

Crozier said it so it must be true therefore we WERE 25% overpaid

Crozier never said that - evidence please. That statement was actually a rewrite by CWU HQ's press machine.

I have to applaud Lovejoy in this thread. He makes some excellent points and the most reasoned comments to date. His analysis of Dvbuk's blinkered statements was absolutely spot on. Everyone is entitled to vote as they please but to think that voting no AND pinning your hopes on more IA as a way to gain a better deal is misguided and frankly irresponsible.

[dvbuk55]

Somebody has posted before but there are too many ifs, buts, whens and maybes, about this agreement. There are too many black holes and grey areas, and the Union and RM expect you to just vote yes and then things will be agreed and sorted as you go along. That is no way to put a proposal to the workforce, they have had 4 months of negotiations and should have everything sorted, ironed out, and watertight in that space of time, before offering it to the membership.
A yes vote will just lead to RM riding rough shot as they have done on previous agreements, notably 2007 agreement.

Strange there are so many unagreed and undecided issues becuse I distinctly remember there being a mantra repeated over and over again and it was:

NOTHING IS AGREED UNTIL EVERYTHING IS AGREED.

That was repeated time after time when we asked for some detail to be released - now we know why nothing was released - it was a case of slam dunk 'em with it all at once.

[fishtank]

Crozier said it so it must be true therefore we WERE 25% overpaid

Crozier never said that - evidence please. That statement was actually a rewrite by CWU HQ's press machine.

I have to applaud Lovejoy in this thread. He makes some excellent points and the most reasoned comments to date. His analysis of Dvbuk's blinkered statements was absolutely spot on. Everyone is entitled to vote as they please but to think that voting no AND pinning your hopes on more IA as a way to gain a better deal is misguided and frankly irresponsible.

I have read all of Dvbuk's posts and at no time did he say he was "pinning your hopes on more IA as a way to gain a better deal ".....evidence please.

[dvbuk55]

Crozier said it so it must be true therefore we WERE 25% overpaid

Crozier never said that - evidence please. That statement was actually a rewrite by CWU HQ's press machine.

I have to applaud Lovejoy in this thread. He makes some excellent points and the most reasoned comments to date. His analysis of Dvbuk's blinkered statements was absolutely spot on. Everyone is entitled to vote as they please but to think that voting no AND pinning your hopes on more IA as a way to gain a better deal is misguided and frankly irresponsible.

Actually NT who said it was not the issue and you have repeated it out of context.

I haven't advocated IA NT and if you read the posts, you can read I presume, you will see that is not the case. I am concerned purely with deliveries of which I have a wealth of experience and you are?

Lovejoy merely repeats the CWU line as you would expect from someone in his position - that doesn't make him right.

[dazzlin72]

You don't need to go back out on strike with a no vote to get a better agreement. If the Union don't have the stomach or the balls to sit back round the table and thrash out a proper agreement that benefits everyone, then all everyone needs to do is work their contractual hours, ie don't go in early paid or not, don't do overtime, take your full 40 min break, don't use your own vehicle, don't go past your 2.30 finish so don't claim extended delivery, basically work to rule. This would bring the business to its knees as they rely too heavily on "goodwill" and "going the extra mile", and they know it.
Unfortunately, there are too many self centred for this to happen.

[creedscat]

The deal is s**t, lovejoy.

You will see when a) it gets thrown out or b) the union faces a funding crisis due to a mass exodus of members who it stabbed in the back.

On your point about a mass exodus of members. Adam Crozier made the statement that RM employees were 25% overpaid and 40% underworked compared to the competition. He was talking about TNT and other non unionised companies so that should give you some idea of what RM would look like without a union. Whether you agree or not with the deal I would hope all on this forum at least understood that we are 25% overpaid due to the sacrifices and strength of the union members over the years.

Crozier said it so it must be true therefore we WERE 25% overpaid - and the competition - what competition ? Does anyone else do an end to end service. I would be the first to say that the unions of old had a strong belief in unity and fair play and I am old enough to have been a part of those sacrifices and I do not believe we are 25% overpaid.

Post of the day. Exactly all i hear is competition,competition, but who else does the final mile????? No one. Why would TNT or any other put posties on the street when they can sub the work straight back to RM for us lot to deliver.Easy money. TNT or any other would not be able to do what RM do now what with the offices,centres,fleet,workers etc as they dont have the resources as it would cost em billions and they know that so they are just happy in winning the work and subbing it all back to us.

Well done DVBUK you have him in your sky rocket. Lovejoy cannot justify a paycut and use's job security as an excuse. Go one then lovejoy lets make RM all part time then see how long it lasts. It wont work and you and every other person with the IQ above a spunk bubble knows it. Stop kidding yourself and trying to brainwash people into a Yes vote as anyone with sense will vote NO.