DVBUK 55's VIEWS ON WHAT HAPPENS IF IT IS A NO

[gb93]

Well said robd some good points made

And a fairly balanced view to boot.

[belle smith]

If the NEC elections are boycotted and there is a low turnout, would it mean that the NEC positions would have to be open to any candidates and the elections re-run?

Whats the current restricktion on people standing???

[lovejoy]

I can see the argument from both sides,but it concerns me that Lovejoy has elected to engage in an almost playground spat with DVBUK 55,simply because he doesn't share the viewpoint of the officials at H.Q.
Irrospective of who has the greater working knowledge of this deal,the problem will come IF a no vote is returned,because in my opinion,the union,and the members,took industrial action against the employer for completely different reasons.
D2D may be the most contentious issue,and ironically the only winner is the employer,this is a good example because the union has only addressed it from a financial standpoint,a delivery postmen will rightly point to the fact that the payment has not increased for over 10 years,and an increased workload for less renumeration was not an aspiration of any postman.
So the underlying issues for all delivery staff remain,indeed have actually intensified,due to a clear lack of detail in the agreement.
As the union have ticked all their boxes,i.e shorter working week and will not feel they have justification for further I.A. and equally,the members will not want to support the union,as they feel they are not listening,and have returned worse conditions than we previously enjoy.
Dingo/Lovejoy,does this leave us a step nearer the management not negotiating with union,as they don't reflect the interests of the membership?

My response was nothing to do with not sharing a viewpoint I can assure you of this. It is because I cannot stand by as somebody paints a romantic picture of the aftermath of a no vote when that clearly is not the case.

In response to your point about being a step nearer not negotiating then no I do not agree. This agreement put sus back in the negotiations on every issue and at every level...... A vast improvement on where we were / are.

[lovejoy]

If the NEC elections are boycotted and there is a low turnout, would it mean that the NEC positions would have to be open to any candidates and the elections re-run?

Whats the current restricktion on people standing???

Whatever the turnout the outcomes will stand.

There are no restrictions... you just need your branch to nominate you. You gain nomination via putting yourself forward at a branch agm / committee meeting etc. Any CWU member can stand.

[dvbuk55]

If the NEC elections are boycotted and there is a low turnout, would it mean that the NEC positions would have to be open to any candidates and the elections re-run?

Whats the current restricktion on people standing???

Whatever the turnout the outcomes will stand.

There are no restrictions... you just need your branch to nominate you. You gain nomination via putting yourself forward at a branch agm / committee meeting etc. Any CWU member can stand.

Yes that is true lovejoy - any CWU member can stand BUT and with you there is always a BUT you need the support of the Branch - now who are they going to support - someone who doesn't share their utopian view of industrial relations or one of the good old boys who toes the line - you won't need three guesses.

Received instructions from on high yet lovejoy? Ready to answer the questions?

[belle smith]

Whatever the turnout the outcomes will stand.

There are no restrictions... you just need your branch to nominate you. You gain nomination via putting yourself forward at a branch agm / committee meeting etc. Any CWU member can stand.

That was kind of my point i didn't think there were restrictions.

[Debbie]

If you chose to ignore realities then carry on.

realitie in you opinion Mate,if you chose to ignore what the members think of your deal you can carry on.......

I think he is being realistic. A no vote won't stop all this coming in, all I wanted out of this agreement was a decent pay rise to compensate for what's inevitably to come - unfortunately I won't get a pay rise at all (even after the 2%), and that's the most disappointing thing about it for me (along with the later Saturdays).

I'm amazed the CWU are selling delivery staff a pay deal like this. We haven't had a pay rise since 2008 and won't get one under this deal, next years it a pitiful 1.5% so it's an effective pay freeze for me from 2008-2012, and even the 3.5% then isn't definite!

The rest of the crap I expected, because the CWU's recent track record for securing us decent agreements isn't exactly great is it?

Yes I agree, we cant trust RM anymore, all the monies they say we will get bonuses, pay rises over three years, I dont think we will ever see it, Been there, done that wore t-shirt.
if they get their yes vote RM will do the usual after a while and come up with some cock and bull idea and change the rules and do what the hell they please like they normally do.
I definately wont be voting yes to work the next 25yrs plus on empty promises that are crap.
pride comes before a fall and voting yes just means your gonna fall quicker and harder.

[lovejoy]

If the NEC elections are boycotted and there is a low turnout, would it mean that the NEC positions would have to be open to any candidates and the elections re-run?

Whats the current restricktion on people standing???

Whatever the turnout the outcomes will stand.

There are no restrictions... you just need your branch to nominate you. You gain nomination via putting yourself forward at a branch agm / committee meeting etc. Any CWU member can stand.

Yes that is true lovejoy - any CWU member can stand BUT and with you there is always a BUT you need the support of the Branch - now who are they going to support - someone who doesn't share their utopian view of industrial relations or one of the good old boys who toes the line - you won't need three guesses.

Received instructions from on high yet lovejoy? Ready to answer the questions?

What questions are they? surely you don't want your position exposed any further after last night?

The support of a branch is needed but like I said you can go to an agm with other members and put yourself forward then a vote will take place of those present. Many people have done this in the past and will do so in the future.

[Big Daz]

There are allways restrictions, even I as local rep need a proposer and seconder, otherwise I stay as a rank and file member.

Luckily there are members who will be more than happy to be my proposer and seconder. Notice is on display at my D.O asking for nominations for local rep, 2nd time the job been advertised. Tecnically there is no rep as my credentials have expired, so I suppose I am the acting rep untill the close of nominations when myself or somebody else is confirmed as being the Local Rep.

Having a chat with the DOM next week, sub area del rep has told me the no savings policy is still in force

[dvbuk55]

.Come on Dvbuk I know you are on the ropes tonight and dodging points better my beloved Scunthorpe but no need to stoop...

These questions - the ones you were going to answer later - well nows your chance



Well I can imagine your sycophantic adoring fans will be PMing you - but just to put the record straight lovejoy here's a few questions you have not answered, in fact you haven't answered any of them - merely spouted the party line:

What are your credentials? - you questioned mine and I answered honestly - I do actually work in a DO and have carried out every job there except manager over the last 20 odd years.
The 75/25 split is to be policed nationally, it is currently 79/21 so does that mean job losses, and how is the figure to be arrived at?
If it means job losses how is job security a part of this agreement?
Is the projected figure for job losses 24,000 - Higson has already said it will mean fewer jobs - if it means job security for the ones who are left, how about the ones who aren't - do they fall into the category of winners or losers? How long will the ones who are left last after this 3 year agreement?
You conveniently state that there is no payment for D2D but a new delivery supplement - so what replaces the payment for D2D - is it the the remainder of the balance from the loss of the ESA? Which would be £8 pro rata for unlimited workload - or am I misrepresenting the figures - one of us must be?
The revision tools which will determine the workload aren't ready yet - so will they be issued before the ballot?
The fabled 1 in 4 Saturdays maybe even 1 in 3 Matrix, which is as we speak still be worked on, will that be ready before the ballot?
Were any of the advisers to the negotiating team ever delivery officers in recent years or ever or even seen a delivery office?

What on earth do we gain, as rank and file members from delivery offices, from accepting this agreement? And you can use as many words as you like but I need only the one - Nothing.

Oh one last thing - Scunthorpe lost 4-2 to the Seasiders - shame - now I wonder if there is message in that scoreline?

[Danelectro]

What questions are they?

1) Why has the performance standards,geo route,indoor workload tools etc not been released.Why is this being being kept under wraps until after the agreement? What the hell is there to hide?

2) You accuse others of painting rosy pictures of what would happen if their is a no vote,yet the picture you paint of whats going to happen with this deal is beyond belief-you spout off that the members are never gonna strike again and at the same time believe royal mail who have no history of sticking to agreements are going to play fair with a workforce that they systematically bully day in day out.Dream on.

3)You accuse offices of agreeing to revisions but yet again your rose tinted specs wont let you see that certainly in my area,dif and area reps blocked and talked down any industrial action. I requested my branch to ask HQ,what action they would recommend-no f***king reply.

[Danelectro]

There are allways restrictions, even I as local rep need a proposer and seconder, otherwise I stay as a rank and file member.

Luckily there are members who will be more than happy to be my proposer and seconder. Notice is on display at my D.O asking for nominations for local rep, 2nd time the job been advertised. Tecnically there is no rep as my credentials have expired, so I suppose I am the acting rep untill the close of nominations when myself or somebody else is confirmed as being the Local Rep.

Having a chat with the DOM next week, sub area del rep has told me the no savings policy is still in force

Good for you,just cut 100+ hours out of my office.postcode lottery

[axeman]

The CWU have squeezed every penny from the company and moved them on every single one of their original positions. Do people really think a no vote would mean royal mail would say 'oh we misjudged that one, here's another £20m we found down the sofa'

by this i asume it refers to funding of the union after a mass exodus by members in disgust of this agreement ????



Absoulute rubbish. The CWU achieved a number of conference policies in this agreement.... The outdoor department sent out a delivery blueprint to branches 12 montsh ago setting out the CWU aims..... every single one has been reached. The focus of our negotiators led to acas being involved and the focus of our negotiators turned over RMs original position on everything!

oh you have proof of this then lovejoy ????


Wrong.... A no vote would mean both sides go back to war and RM revert to using their own unagreed standards. The last thing on the minds of the 2 HQs in the event of a no vote would be workshops (oh and they r booked in for week after next). If anything a no vote put this at risk.

strange play on words there lovejoy handed to you by ward was it ??????


I have to say this is the biggest red herring of the lot. At a time when companies across the world and the uk are going to the wall, people around us are losing their jobs YOU see the security of a 3 year deal as bad thing. Unbelievable.

a three year ''deal'' this is no deal belive me ask the membership it amounts to defeatism by our esteemed leaders





In the circumstances this is a very good settlement. I expect the majority of members to see the agreement / background to it as a whole by the time the vote comes out.

in whose circumstances hayes and wards ? it certainly is no deal for those who walk the streets each and every working day it amounts to workhouse rules

If you want to attack me carry on but when you do I ask you to think not about yourselves because I know that you are good trade unionists and would back action at anytime. The National Union must judge the situation as a whole. They feel that the process is exhausted, there is no widespread appetite for more action, the agreement represents very good value for cwu members in the current environment and that now is the time to settle.

I could analyse the negative points from the deal (and I have ) but also to make a real call you must also look at the positives and the internal and external environment. When all this is taken into consideration I think we will see a YES vote in the ballot.

the national union has completly misjudged this in fact i'd go as far as to say they are distancing themselves from those that pay there wages in favour of there master royal fail

please lets have you thoughts on the negatives or is it because there are so many you'd not have time to write them all down before the ballot result

[Big Daz]

What questions are they?

1) Why has the performance standards,geo route,indoor workload tools etc not been released.Why is this being being kept under wraps until after the agreement? What the hell is there to hide?

Still being developed, so not under wraps, that said there the question of should we vote before we have the CDV guidelines attendance pattern options and workrates stuff fully devloped and released. DTD into workload sounds great and no doubt essential if RM do get a bigger share of the market, but before we say yes or no we should how the CWU/RML intend for that happen. CDV are listed as a delivery method in infinty and beyond, but without the guidelines how can we approve or dissaprove of them?

[POSTMAN]

In part,there are some good posts in this thread,many questions are asked,many answered,i would say,in part again it is quite informative.
But the other parts are very sarcy.

Ladies,let it not kick of please,let's not try to score points with each other.