DVBUK 55's VIEWS ON WHAT HAPPENS IF IT IS A NO

[spilie]

lovejoy you know its a crap deal and you know lots of people are losing money, you keep saying there is no stomach for a strike, what happens if at the end of 3 years ( thats how long it will take for me to get back to todays level of pay) RM say well lovejoy and the gang pointed out the last time that there was no stomach for a fight so f**k them lets put the boot in again , do you seriously think you can come back to the membership and ballot for strike action?, as far as i can see the CWU have commited suicide with this deal because all your reasons for accepting it end with "i dont think there is the stomach for another strike"

[Big Daz]

FAMILY FRIENDLY MORE WORK FOR LESS PAY AND FINISH LATER ON SATURDAY WHEN MOST PEOPLE HAVE HAD WHOLE DAY OFF VOTE NO !!!!!!!!

No sure what DO you work at mate but the overwhelming majority of members work 5 in 6 saturdays.

This agreement commits RM to a base 1 in 4 off and te menu of options will give options of 1in3, 1in2 and all sats off.

Turn the CAPS off mate.... it's scary

My mbrs voted against rotating day off by a very large majority in a local ballot I held.

[Big Daz]

In fact this forum is not that helpful with this issue because most posters will not say where they are from!

Good reason for that,

It is advised by POSTMAN and his team not to reveal that as there are managers who have identfied posters on this site and got arsey with them to put it mildly

[MinisterofCucumber]

Well done Dvbuk55,

You have really rattled Lovejoy's cage.

Like you and Roy Mayall, I am not a member of any political party and I take home about £300 a week. Lovejoy will not tell us if he is a member of the Labour party or reveal how much he earns. We need this information as it is relevant to his claim that he really cares.

A union is meant to represent the views of its members not dictate to them what their views should be. A union should certainly not portray ordinary members who care as militants.

[mitzi]

Told by our DSM this week that "if the geo route spits out more hours then so be it". This was only because the workshops will have ACAS involved and BSI will be ACAS BSI...not Royal Mail's version

Some posters on here chose to ignore this as it doesn't fit with their agenda!

I will choose to ignore this or anything else that isnt actually written in the agreement.
Experience tells us that unless it is in black and white then it doesnt count. That goes for all conjecture and supposition. This agreement is wrong not just for the discriminatory and unjust way it treats delivery members, in particular PT but also for the things it doesnt say.
The arrogance of a union which asks its members to vote for an agreemnt and then tell us the details later is unbelievable. Its going to be a NO vote from deliveries and no amount of attacks on members like DVBuk who try to highlight these issues will change our minds.

[pickaname]

Some example of how the PEC havent really thought about this deal:

We were told by a member of the PEC at a recent union meeting in Portsmouth that D2D will be taken out at 18% a day over 6 days.

A. the agreement doesnt mention this figure
B. How does 6x18% = 100%

Also this bloke stated that the "menu of options" for saturdays off is still being worked on. i.e the deal is not yet complete. Why are we voting on a deal that is incomplete?

Further to this, it was highlighted by our ex rep that, as D2D will now be part of the workload (classed as real mail), any customers that have "no circulars" or similar sign on thier property are technically refusing the mail and (just like regular mail) the d2d item would need to be endorsed with a dead sticker and returned to sender.
The PEC dude didnt have an answer for this, in fact it seemed this hadnt been considered at all as his face was blank and he just sat there shrugging his shouulders.

This deal is farcical and its vague and grey areas such as this that make it a no from my branch HQ not just its members..

Send them back to get a water tight agreement with real figures, else were all screwed.

[dvbuk55]

Now lets deal with subject of the strikes - the first step would be the CWU going back to the table - as for calling a strike - they wouldn't get a yes vote.

Why would anybody vote no to the agreement and then no to a further strike ballot!! What kind of negotiating position is that!!!

Thats not directed at you dvbuk55, i know you would vote to strike. But that really would not be a strong position!

You missed the second point belle - RM need the acceptance of delivery officers to implement the changes - you can lead a horse to water .............

Yes they do need the acceptance of the members but there were about 300 local units taking action last year over the savings that RM implemented. That left 1200 that just accepted them......... I think without the protection of a national agreement for our members they'll be happy to work on that ratio don't you

Lovejoy I don't know where you are coming from - they accepted the changes AGREED in the 2007 Pay and Mod agreement which they voted to accept - this agreement has NOT been accepted and we do not need to accept the changes. AND WE DO NOT NEED TO STRIKE - that is talk to scare the children - if they have negotiated for four months let them negotiate for another 4 - we're in no hurry to accept a pay cut.

You say that 1200 offices accepted change but that was agreed change or so RM said and looking at that agreement who was to say differently - HQ - gone with the wind once that deal was signed for two years - they had to have their arm twisted to call a National Ballot because of the bullying and harassment and the implementation of change by EA - and then bottled it.

This agreement is even worse than the last one - there's more holes in it than a string vest.

[lovejoy]

Well done Dvbuk55,

You have really rattled Lovejoy's cage.
Like you and Roy Mayall, I am not a member of any political party and I take home about £300 a week. Lovejoy will not tell us if he is a member of the Labour party or reveal how much he earns. We need this information as it is relevant to his claim that he really cares.

A union is meant to represent the views of its members not dictate to them what their views should be. A union should certainly not portray ordinary members who care as militants.

Of course thats why I have had a large number of PMs from people saying thank you for putting him in his place isn't it.

[dvbuk55]

We as a branch are voting no because they are charging one of our reps with trumped up charges.I think we could live with the rest of it,bar the "trust" page,(that being the first page).

Fair play to you. Always look after your own.

Your own being who lovejoy?

Reps my friend.

Come on Dvbuk I know you are on the ropes tonight and dodging points better my beloved Scunthorpe but no need to stoop...

I haven't dodged any questions lovejoy - you are the one fudging the issues - ah - the penny drops you don't actually represent any members then.

[lovejoy]

Now lets deal with subject of the strikes - the first step would be the CWU going back to the table - as for calling a strike - they wouldn't get a yes vote.

Why would anybody vote no to the agreement and then no to a further strike ballot!! What kind of negotiating position is that!!!

Thats not directed at you dvbuk55, i know you would vote to strike. But that really would not be a strong position!

You missed the second point belle - RM need the acceptance of delivery officers to implement the changes - you can lead a horse to water .............

Yes they do need the acceptance of the members but there were about 300 local units taking action last year over the savings that RM implemented. That left 1200 that just accepted them......... I think without the protection of a national agreement for our members they'll be happy to work on that ratio don't you

Lovejoy I don't know where you are coming from - they accepted the changes AGREED in the 2007 Pay and Mod agreement which they voted to accept - this agreement has NOT been accepted and we do not need to accept the changes. AND WE DO NOT NEED TO STRIKE - that is talk to scare the children - if they have negotiated for four months let them negotiate for another 4 - we're in no hurry to accept a pay cut.

You say that 1200 offices accepted change but that was agreed change or so RM said and looking at that agreement who was to say differently - HQ - gone with the wind once that deal was signed for two years - they had to have their arm twisted to call a National Ballot because of the bullying and harassment and the implementation of change by EA - and then bottled it.

This agreement is even worse than the last one - there's more holes in it than a string vest.

Not true Dvbuk. That section of the pay and mod was over last year and ALL BRANCHES AND UNIT REPS WERE TOLD NOT TO AGREE TO SAVINGS.

1200 offices either agreed to them or let them come in by EA with no reaction.

Yes I agree with you that the national ballot was too slow but one reason for this was that many branches were saying that they were unable to get a yes vote as the members had accepted change.

I know you are struggling but this is off thread isn't it?

'They've negotiated for 4 months, they can negotiate for another 4'....... Oh yes and in the meantime RM will carry on with their unagreed processes, we'll have a Tory Government looking to give us a slap and when the union calls for support units like yours Dvbuk would have done the deal.

I am all for the debate but as I said earlier i think you have been attended a SWP rallies lately because your irresponsible no thought for the consequences views are straight out of their rulebook.

I am off out today so you are safe to go back to your world and encourage others to join you without anyone pulling you up!

[lovejoy]

We as a branch are voting no because they are charging one of our reps with trumped up charges.I think we could live with the rest of it,bar the "trust" page,(that being the first page).

Fair play to you. Always look after your own.

Your own being who lovejoy?

Reps my friend.

Come on Dvbuk I know you are on the ropes tonight and dodging points better my beloved Scunthorpe but no need to stoop...

I haven't dodged any questions lovejoy - you are the one fudging the issues - ah - the penny drops you don't actually represent any members then.

No of course not thats why you continue to peddle the 'they'll have to go back and talk some more' line whilst ignoring my counters to everything i have raised.

[drb]

1200 offices either agreed to them or let them come in by EA with no reaction.

We had EA in our office last year.We did want to do something about it,BUT we did not want to invalidate the local ballots.As a consequence our rep was charged( and still is),with trumped up charges. I promise you we would of gave them a spanking other wise....................

[lovejoy]

1200 offices either agreed to them or let them come in by EA with no reaction.

We had EA in our office last year.We did want to do something about it,BUT we did not want to invalidate the local ballots.As a consequence our rep was charged( and still is),with trumped up charges. I promise you we would of gave them a spanking other wise....................

Fair play and it should be pointed out that there were a few offices in the same position as yours but that still leaves 1100+ accepting the change..... funny how those people are now the brave!

[drb]

To stay on the point,we organised a commitee in our own time,created an email mailing list,so as to keep everyone informed. Rank & File is probably the correct term.Members tend to get frustrated without any info.This site certainly helped. I would tend to say that last year has created a lot of hate and dis-trust.Hence the reaction to this deal.

Not sure though what we actually want? Better pay? True,however our office didn't strike for pay as the main issue.It was the EA,(Bullying and the stupid dismissals). The unfair workloads were terrible as well,plus,as mentioned the attacks on the reps.

During the strikes of last year that was what was coming from most offices. We need to decide on what issues we want addressed,the important ones.

It's worth the debate if it's there,however to say "NO" to everything,in this political climate,does not give you any leeway.

[dvbuk55]

.Come on Dvbuk I know you are on the ropes tonight and dodging points better my beloved Scunthorpe but no need to stoop...

Well I can imagine your sycophantic adoring fans will be PMing you - but just to put the record straight lovejoy here's a few questions you have not answered, in fact you haven't answered any of them - merely spouted the party line:

What are your credentials? - you questioned mine and I answered honestly - I do actually work in a DO and have carried out every job there except manager over the last 20 odd years.
The 75/25 split is to be policed nationally, it is currently 79/21 so does that mean job losses, and how is the figure to be arrived at?
If it means job losses how is job security a part of this agreement?
Is the projected figure for job losses 24,000 - Higson has already said it will mean fewer jobs - if it means job security for the ones who are left, how about the ones who aren't - do they fall into the category of winners or losers? How long will the ones who are left last after this 3 year agreement?
You conveniently state that there is no payment for D2D but a new delivery supplement - so what replaces the payment for D2D - is it the the remainder of the balance from the loss of the ESA? Which would be £8 pro rata for unlimited workload - or am I misrepresenting the figures - one of us must be?
The revision tools which will determine the workload aren't ready yet - so will they be issued before the ballot?
The fabled 1 in 4 Saturdays maybe even 1 in 3 Matrix, which is as we speak still be worked on, will that be ready before the ballot?
Were any of the advisers to the negotiating team ever delivery officers in recent years or ever or even seen a delivery office?

What on earth do we gain, as rank and file members from delivery offices, from accepting this agreement? And you can use as many words as you like but I need only the one - Nothing.

Oh one last thing - Scunthorpe lost 4-2 to the Seasiders - shame - now I wonder if there is message in that scoreline?