£20.60 supplement for 3 years only ???

[lovejoy]

If it changes the monies being paid out will stay in the paybill and the change is likely to be the supplement money put into basic pay.

DTD and ESA have stayed in the paybill.

So it has! However look at where the money is being spent, lets for arguments sake say a new starter comes through the door on a FT contract, however unlikely that sounds, he gets a supplementary payment of £20.60, Joe Bloggs in the next delivery office who is part time not only loses his grandfather rights ESA but gets only a pro rata supplement that he has worked many years for - does that sound fair? The upshot of it is that Joe Bloggs has money taken away to give A N Other who just walks through the door!!!!!!!!!!!

Whoever has done the groundwork on this deal has seriously misjudged the depth of feeling on just this one topic - like I've said before, this isn't 2007 and people are far more aware of the agreement this time round and its ramifications.

Better come up with Plan B and bloody quick about it and while they're at it if Plan A is anything to go by it'd be wise to have a Plan C and D as well.

Come on you have to have some better arguments than that............ so you are saying it is feasible that someone will be employed off the street onto a better contract than one of our current PT members.....

I know you are pushing hard for a NO vote but surely there are better arguments than that!?!?

The supplement will only go if it can be put into basic pay at some point. The advantage of this would be that the 20.60 would then become fully pensionable.

[fishtank]

Come on you have to have some better arguments than that............ so you are saying it is feasible that someone will be employed off the street onto a better contract than one of our current PT members.....

I know you are pushing hard for a NO vote but surely there are better arguments than that!?!?

The supplement will only go if it can be put into basic pay at some point. The advantage of this would be that the 20.60 would then become fully pensionable.

The disadvantage obviously that if it goes into basic pay the "delivery supplement" would be spread amongst all OPGs and that 20.60 would not be anything like 20.60.

[dvbuk55]

If it changes the monies being paid out will stay in the paybill and the change is likely to be the supplement money put into basic pay.

DTD and ESA have stayed in the paybill.

So it has! However look at where the money is being spent, lets for arguments sake say a new starter comes through the door on a FT contract, however unlikely that sounds, he gets a supplementary payment of £20.60, Joe Bloggs in the next delivery office who is part time not only loses his grandfather rights ESA but gets only a pro rata supplement that he has worked many years for - does that sound fair? The upshot of it is that Joe Bloggs has money taken away to give A N Other who just walks through the door!!!!!!!!!!!

Whoever has done the groundwork on this deal has seriously misjudged the depth of feeling on just this one topic - like I've said before, this isn't 2007 and people are far more aware of the agreement this time round and its ramifications.

Better come up with Plan B and bloody quick about it and while they're at it if Plan A is anything to go by it'd be wise to have a Plan C and D as well.

Come on you have to have some better arguments than that............ so you are saying it is feasible that someone will be employed off the street onto a better contract than one of our current PT members.....

I know you are pushing hard for a NO vote but surely there are better arguments than that!?!?

The supplement will only go if it can be put into basic pay at some point. The advantage of this would be that the 20.60 would then become fully pensionable.

You miss the point totally lovejoy and basically that's the problem with people like you - so far removed from the shop floor you cannot see the obvious - would be could be should be actually ISN'T - what is a fact is that a part timer is losing and someone who starts tomorrow would actually be getting the money from the other blokes ESA.

It isn't in basic NOW, there is no time scale for it to be in basic pay certainly not in the span of this agreement and whats more it isn't pensionable - and really how long is the pension going to remain?

You are right to say that I would like a no vote because this agreement is not in the best interests of the rank and file members of this union.

[Big Daz]

Come on you have to have some better arguments than that............ so you are saying it is feasible that someone will be employed off the street onto a better contract than one of our current PT members.....

I know you are pushing hard for a NO vote but surely there are better arguments than that!?!?

The supplement will only go if it can be put into basic pay at some point. The advantage of this would be that the 20.60 would then become fully pensionable.

The disadvantage obviously that if it goes into basic pay the "delivery supplement" would be spread amongst all OPGs and that 20.60 would not be anything like 20.60.

Ive been wondering about the DS into basic pay as well and along the same lines as you Mr fishtank

[Martin Walsh]

The £20.60 payment is a permanent ( non pensionable ) supplement to basic pay. The agreement is quite clear its on page 67 of the agreement titled Pay Simplification Delivery.

It is different from grandfather rights etc under pay and mod which stated : EARLY SHIFT ALLOWANCES IN DELIVERY RETAINED AS GRANDFATHER RIGHTS ( FOR THOSE IN RECEIPT SINCE APRIL 2007 ) INCLDUING THOSE IN RECEIPT OF EQUIVALENT MTSF PAYMENTS FOR CHANGES MADE SINCE MAY 2005. WE WILL AGREE HOW THIS MONEY AND EQUIVALENT MTSF PAYMENTS FOR EARLY SHIFTS, MAY BE USED GOING FORWARD AS PART OF PAY RESTRUCTURING PROCESS IN JOINT WORKING GROUP 2 - IF NO SATISFACTORY SOLUTION IS FOUND THEN GRANDFATHER RIGHTS WILL BE RETAINED. THE EARLY SHIFT PAYMENT IS CEASED IN DELIVERY ON AGREEMENT TO PAY RESTRUCTURING.

[Big Daz]

dingo

If the DS goes into basic pay will our comrades in processing and distribution get a payrise to match or will the money be shared around everyone thus every delivery perosn having a lower DS?

[guvenor]

if supplement is permanent put it into basic pay
we all know why that is not going to happen
again do not be fooled by false pretences
rm agenda pt del workforce , no mailcentres done privately dsa, oh and eventually min wage
not horses for courses but donkeys for delivery

[Martin Walsh]

Look it is a permanent supplement to basic pay. The only thing it is not is pensionable. But it is paid 52 weeks per year and will increase in future pay rises.

Those who have been in Royal Mail for a few years will remember that up to the way forward we had UPAP which was Unconsolidated permanent addition to basic pay. That was around 15 years and then became pensionable.

The only time that the supplement will go into pensionable pay is probably if the pension defcit is sorted.

Some people have quoted the words are the words in the agreement and on page 67 the words could not be cleared the £20.60 is a permanent (non pensionable ) supplement to basic pay.

[lovejoy]

If it changes the monies being paid out will stay in the paybill and the change is likely to be the supplement money put into basic pay.

DTD and ESA have stayed in the paybill.

So it has! However look at where the money is being spent, lets for arguments sake say a new starter comes through the door on a FT contract, however unlikely that sounds, he gets a supplementary payment of £20.60, Joe Bloggs in the next delivery office who is part time not only loses his grandfather rights ESA but gets only a pro rata supplement that he has worked many years for - does that sound fair? The upshot of it is that Joe Bloggs has money taken away to give A N Other who just walks through the door!!!!!!!!!!!

Whoever has done the groundwork on this deal has seriously misjudged the depth of feeling on just this one topic - like I've said before, this isn't 2007 and people are far more aware of the agreement this time round and its ramifications.

Better come up with Plan B and bloody quick about it and while they're at it if Plan A is anything to go by it'd be wise to have a Plan C and D as well.

Come on you have to have some better arguments than that............ so you are saying it is feasible that someone will be employed off the street onto a better contract than one of our current PT members.....

I know you are pushing hard for a NO vote but surely there are better arguments than that!?!?

The supplement will only go if it can be put into basic pay at some point. The advantage of this would be that the 20.60 would then become fully pensionable.

You miss the point totally lovejoy and basically that's the problem with people like you - so far removed from the shop floor you cannot see the obvious - would be could be should be actually ISN'T - what is a fact is that a part timer is losing and someone who starts tomorrow would actually be getting the money from the other blokes ESA.

It isn't in basic NOW, there is no time scale for it to be in basic pay certainly not in the span of this agreement and whats more it isn't pensionable - and really how long is the pension going to remain?

You are right to say that I would like a no vote because this agreement is not in the best interests of the rank and file members of this union.

What an clueless post.

I tell you what then rather tahn incorporate the ESA let it carry on dying out of the industry and going with each person that leave and stuff anyone that joins..... Great Trade Unionism!!!

No incorporating the supplement is not in this agreement but does that mean it is not part of the strategy - no!

Once again you state that the agreement is not in the interest of the rank and file - they will decide that.

I'd appreciate it if you'd cut out the pathetic jibes about being removed from the workforce because the reality is (if you are being honest) you are someone who uses the same old excuses - 'i'm too old to be a rep' 'i haven't got the time'

It is very easy to mouth off when you have no responsibilities or when members jobs are not riding on your say. Well done. Where were you last year leading your office out on a local ballot? I'll tell you where - nowhere because as with every dispute all of a sudden the weak become the strong and history re-writes itself.

This agreement is not perfect - far from it but the unions officers have faced some huge decisions on jobs v d2d payments, security of jobs, MTSF, pensions etc....... Although not part of that process when I cast my vote I'll think about whether when all things are considered those are the right calls............ and not try to play the hero

[Glenno]

Dingo this is an exact Quote from the Agreement, the next paragraph down

Individuals in receipt of pensionable allowances incorporated into this payment will retain full pensionability of those elements on a reserved rights basis.

So if i am right if you get EMS now under protected rights (pensionable) you WILL continue to get THAT part of the new supplement (pensionable) ???????????????????????????????

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Look it is a permanent supplement to basic pay. The only thing it is not is pensionable. But it is paid 52 weeks per year and will increase in future pay rises.

Those who have been in Royal Mail for a few years will remember that up to the way forward we had UPAP which was Unconsolidated permanent addition to basic pay. That was around 15 years and then became pensionable.

The only time that the supplement will go into pensionable pay is probably if the pension defcit is sorted.

Some people have quoted the words are the words in the agreement and on page 67 the words could not be cleared the £20.60 is a permanent (non pensionable ) supplement to basic pay.

Page 60 actually on my copy but you are right it does say permanent.

It has been agreed to cease and incorporate the total value of these payments (£52m Door to Door, and £40m delivery early shift allowance and grandfather rights) into a new permanent (non-pensionable) supplement to basic pay.

[Glenno]

TBT have read both copies and my previous post still Sands

[jockstrapp]

Look it is a permanent supplement to basic pay. The only thing it is not is pensionable. But it is paid 52 weeks per year and will increase in future pay rises.

Those who have been in Royal Mail for a few years will remember that up to the way forward we had UPAP which was Unconsolidated permanent addition to basic pay. That was around 15 years and then became pensionable.

The only time that the supplement will go into pensionable pay is probably if the pension defcit is sorted.

Some people have quoted the words are the words in the agreement and on page 67 the words could not be cleared the £20.60 is a permanent (non pensionable ) supplement to basic pay.

Definition
permanent adjective
/ˈpɜː.mə.nənt//ˈpɝː-/
•
lasting for a long time or forever

So is 2010 - 2013 considered a long time???????????????????????

[Glenno]

Dingo this is an exact Quote from the Agreement, the next paragraph down

Individuals in receipt of pensionable allowances incorporated into this payment will retain full pensionability of those elements on a reserved rights basis.

So if i am right if you get EMS now under protected rights (pensionable) you WILL continue to get THAT part of the new supplement (pensionable) ???????????????????????????????

There is a Question here, if anybody would care to answer

[Martin Walsh]

Dingo this is an exact Quote from the Agreement, the next paragraph down

Individuals in receipt of pensionable allowances incorporated into this payment will retain full pensionability of those elements on a reserved rights basis.

So if i am right if you get EMS now under protected rights (pensionable) you WILL continue to get THAT part of the new supplement (pensionable) ???????????????????????????????

There is a Question here, if anybody would care to answer

Yes you will retain full pensionbility for your early shift payments , either the £12 or the £6 .