Does this deal stop us cutting off?

[fishtank]

1) Get your walk ready for you so when you get in it's all tied up.
2) Get the walk next to it ready for you and all tied up.
3) Give you the keys to bag drops for both walks.
4) Tell you, 'now i know both of these rounds can be delivered in 4 hours, you have 8 hours shift time left so get out the door and don't bring anything back or you will be done for wilful delay, got it?'


Whilst i dont disagree, that if they could, they would do this, it wouldnt really be possible, would it ? If you start at 6am, the manager would have to wait for all the sequenced mail and ips mail to be sorted.....at least 8am before you could feasibly be ready. And you`re not allowed aout of your office till 9.30am anyway.

It is i would guess a worst case scenario but does highlight just how much freedom this agreement will give management.

[Big Daz]

Annexe B is correct, where is the time going to come from

H and S reps have a big part to play in the local revisions, utilise them!!!!

[banner18]

There is a big issue here everyone needs to understand. You can cut off after 3 1/2 hours of delivery work period. Even if you have 2hrs of your shift left you can cease delivery, return to office and request indoors work for the remainder of your shift. THAT MAX 3 1/2 delivery span is about to change. What effect does that have on me you might say? Well if you get uppety and all 'I'm gonna work my hours' to the managers and he doesn't like it he will do this.

1) Get your walk ready for you so when you get in it's all tied up.
2) Get the walk next to it ready for you and all tied up.
3) Give you the keys to bag drops for both walks.
4) Tell you, 'now i know both of these rounds can be delivered in 4 hours, you have 8 hours shift time left so get out the door and don't bring anything back or you will be done for wilful delay, got it?'

With uncapped delivery spans as agreed in this 'Agreement' you will have NO option, you will HAVE to deliver it. That's the danger and it will put a stop to all your 'work my hours' ideas.

Some problems with that. How could the walks both be ready? Your indoor time will coincide with the mail arriving walk sequenced, ready to be prepped. Missorts within the office as well as those outside the office still have to come. After all this is done, how could you have 8 hours left?
Uncapped delivery spans could be abused, I do agree with you, but not in this manner. Also, this would be outright victimisation unless everybody else was doing it.

It could be done if there were cut offs from the previous day, your walk gets sorted by a rehab whilst you deliver that.

[fishtank]

Annexe B is correct, where is the time going to come from

H and S reps have a big part to play in the local revisions, utilise them!!!!

Well if you want to play hypothetical situations which is all this is think about this one.
You walk into your D.O on a thurday morning after your day off to find that due to staffing issues your duty was prepped on the wednesday but not delivered.
Your DOM then says to you tie it up and deliver it so of you pop at 0730 out on your delivery and back you come at say 11.30.
While you have been away your duty has been prepped and after your 40min break at 12.10 you are sent back out for another 2.30hrs.
Unlikely.... yes Impossible...... not under this agreement.

[opgpat]

Well it's easy to do. Send the guy out with 8 d2ds for the first 2hrs then have the prepped mail left at bag drops for him for the next 6hrs. Or like previous poster said make them start with cut offs. It's easy to fu*k someone over like this and don't doubt managers will use it as a weapon to threaten anyone who tries to work their hours or cut off. And don't think it could be prevented by threatening victimisation because anything goes when it's for 'logistical reasons'. They can make up any story to do with indoor/outdoors workload to have a reson why they need some people on 'extended outside deliveries'.

If we give management the opportunity to do something like this then inevitably they will. You must all know bosses with no morals, well this is a tyrants charter and with unlimited deliveries they can make life very very hard for anyone rocking the boat.

[clashcityrocker]

Fatigue?
And stress?

[banner18]

Well it's easy to do. Send the guy out with 8 d2ds for the first 2hrs then have the prepped mail left at bag drops for him for the next 6hrs. Or like previous poster said make them start with cut offs. It's easy to fu*k someone over like this and don't doubt managers will use it as a weapon to threaten anyone who tries to work their hours or cut off. And don't think it could be prevented by threatening victimisation because anything goes when it's for 'logistical reasons'. They can make up any story to do with indoor/outdoors workload to have a reson why they need some people on 'extended outside deliveries'.

If we give management the opportunity to do something like this then inevitably they will. You must all know bosses with no morals, well this is a tyrants charter and with unlimited deliveries they can make life very very hard for anyone rocking the boat.

This would be exceptional victimisation and obvious to all around. Dangerous ground for even the most sadistic manager. I don't doubt some would like to do this but I can't see them putting themselves on the spot so blatantly. Maybe in very small offices some could try it?

At the end of the day, you are using bits of the agreement that could be used to make an individuals' life very hard. If that isn't victimisation I don't know what is?

Of course this could, and probably would be done, but the work would have to be absorbed and shared by all, as per the 2007 agreement.

[fishtank]

Fatigue?
And stress?

How do you quantify those two?

[opgpat]

Fatigue?
And stress?

Are you serious? Very relative terms there - who has the final say on how long is too long? RM. Who has the final say on whether a walk is achievable? RM. Who has the final say on how stressful to your body a delivery will be? RM. If we were being protected by this agreement we would have a fixed MAX del span which could be exceeded at the agreement of the operative.

How do you prove an assigned delivery span is too fatiguing or stressful? You can't if there are no set rules or principles in the Agreement. Uncapped means uncapped end of, out the door you go and don't come back with mail again or you will recieve your third and final warning.

[banner18]

I agree, I can't understand why there is no upper fixed limit on del spans. Maybe it is for those offices wanting a 3 day week or something?

[opgpat]

At the end of the day, you are using bits of the agreement that could be used to make an individuals' life very hard. If that isn't victimisation I don't know what is?

lol yeah that is actually your managers job. Obviously they are briefed and trained extensively by upper management about ways in which they can cajoule staff into doing what they want. In regards to this, you may think it's victimisation, a manager might say it's using the workforce in an efficient way because they do need 'a few people' to do uncovered d2d and unexpected cut offs. How do you prove you are being victimised when the manager is not doing anything against the agreement or openly harrassing you? He's just giving you an extended outside delivery and also giving you 'sufficient time' in which to do it.

Of course this could, and probably would be done, but the work would have to be absorbed and shared by all, as per the 2007 agreement.

The 2007 agreement will be superceeded by this one wont it? Regardless this can be justified for 'logistical reasons' at the end of the day.

[opgpat]

I agree, I can't understand why there is no upper fixed limit on del spans. Maybe it is for those offices wanting a 3 day week or something?

Well one reason might be because it gives managers the ultimate tool to break you. You rock the boat and your on 6-8hr deliveries. I think that would sort out any issues uppety staff might have.

Think about what you have experienced from RM in the past and think whether this could happen? I'd say it's the new work tool some managers are keen to get their hands on.

[clashcityrocker]

Fatigue?
And stress?

How do you quantify those two?

How do you quantify them now?
If you are too stressed to work you go sick.

[fishtank]

Fatigue?
And stress?

How do you quantify those two?

How do you quantify them now?
If you are too stressed to work you go sick.

Now that throws up an interesting question.
Where are the new fairer,less draconian attendance/sick absence procedures we were promised?

[belle smith]

It is not a question of whether you can cut off,of course you can't be forced to work outside of your contracted hours.
The really interesting question is what will happen if you cut off?
Will it be a performance issue or will it be a delivery span issue?

Well i'm sure it will be one of them.