Understanding the agreement

[belle smith]

What is an "enabler" ?

thats what delivery spans will be under this agreement, does what it says on the tin.

"you want more p/t made up to f/t, okay longer delivery spans will enable that."
"you would like 1 saturday off in every 3, okay longer delivery spans will enable that."

We could have already negotiated those things locally, and my gripe is not about those specifically because theres little other option of thats what the staff in your DO want.

But i'm worried that even if you don't agree to this then at some point in the future, then longer delivery spans will 'enable' savings.

[MinisterofCucumber]

What is an "enabler" ?

It's like a big dildo being administered just before you get a big cock rammed up your ass just makes it that bit less uncomfortable for the time being!.

That's an authoritive answer. Are you speaking from experience?

[k979aaa]

In regards to one in four saturdays being ingnore turn to page 31 number 5 it clearly talks about a prefence exercise before a revison on Saturdays. If you turn to page 15 titled the workplan where it states that national reviews will ensure that attendance patterns are delivered at local level.

Sorry I can't read that because the link to the Agreement on the cwu site has been cancelled. If it remains so, I can't make up my mind independantly and will vote NO by default.

http://www.cwu.org/assets/_files/docume ... 1268911335_" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Again its great quoting 10% per cent etc but read what that states it on page 17 titled productivity : it states that it is essential that measurement systems are fair , objective , equitable ,

mmm It would actually be illegal for the Agreement to state anything else. It's a basic principle of employmet law that same-job workers are treated equally, objectively and work is divided up fairly. So are we supposed to be praising this? A reworking of current legal standards?

it states that it is essential that measurement systems are...fully understood and bench marked on a like for like proecess.

So this means that the Pegasus tool is programmed like for like nationally. OK that's good but contradictory to the allowance for local issues to be taken into account in relation to Pegasus isn't it.

It also states that both parties need to fully understand why there are a range of perfromance levels across Royal Mail.

Again contradictory. The Agreement says all tools are to be bench marked on a like for like but then immediately says there will be a range of performance levels. Does this mean Pegasus will be programmed differently for say rural and urban or does it mean to say that workers don't all work at the same speed? WHAT does it mean?

That is ALL by the by because the VITAL details about Pegasus are the data input - walk speed, call rate, distance over the ground, steps in flats, gradients and NONE of that is addressed here. NONE of it.

It is an open book to an open out the door policy for all who work for royal mail no matter how good you are how quick you are or how perfect you are you will never meet the ever changing needs/standards of the business!.

[macphee1]

Someone earlier in the thread posted that under the need to make savings,managers would ignore the agreement etc..

As a rep,who was at the Glasgow briefing yesterday this issue of trust was discussed and my understanding was that the basis of revisions would not be savings,but fair and accurate traffic recording of traffic,including door to door and the as yet unseen workload tools etc..


Now assuming these standards are fair and achievable this seems to offer chances to improve things in my office.

As an aside,when discussing this with my manager ,who i argue with daily,he was both aware of this fact and expressed some relief at not having to find some budget savings

It might have been me, thats a point i've made on many occassions. I hope thats accurate but i'm unconvinsed, and that 'understanding' is not explicitly stated in the agreement....That delivery spans no longer have a maximum limit but should be seen as an enabler is. I'm not keen on the figures for the revision tools being unseen and not in the agreement either.

Maybe I'm being to trusting,but the joint workshops etc.. will certainly be used by me me to highlight false trafficing,unallocated time etc...

Just to give you a bit of my backgroud.I'm a fairly new rep(22 months) in a rural delivery office which either had no rep,or a rep who never read an agreement and just went along with management.His response when the manager put a duty we were occasionally lapsing permanently onto our frames was "you have to have something to fill your day"

In our office saturday has been the same as any other day since we went to one delivery.Today I worked 7 till 3.Our delivery span for town averages 4.5 hours and rurals 5.5 to 6.75hours.

I'm still struggling to get some of this changed but things have improved,and nothing's got worse.Thanks to this site and the people and information on it,we have at least shown we will not be walked all over.

[k979aaa]

What is an "enabler" ?

It's like a big dildo being administered just before you get a big cock rammed up your ass just makes it that bit less uncomfortable for the time being!.

That's an authoritive answer. Are you speaking from experience?

If this deal goes through you will experience it first hand!.

[MinisterofCucumber]

f**k.

[belle smith]

Maybe I'm being to trusting,but the joint workshops etc.. will certainly be used by me me to highlight false trafficing,unallocated time etc...

Just to give you a bit of my backgroud.I'm a fairly new rep(22 months) in a rural delivery office which either had no rep,or a rep who never read an agreement and just went along with management.His response when the manager put a duty we were occasionally lapsing permanently onto our frames was "you have to have something to fill your day"

In our office saturday has been the same as any other day since we went to one delivery.Today I worked 7 till 3.Our delivery span for town averages 4.5 hours and rurals 5.5 to 6.75hours.

I'm still struggling to get some of this changed but things have improved,and nothing's got worse.Thanks to this site and the people and information on it,we have at least shown we will not be walked all over.

Maybe, but maybe i'm being too cynical as well. I have no real problem with the process set out for working standards in the workshops, if they had followed that and put the results in the agreement then fine. and i'd preffer not to vote on trust.

I'm not being critical of you. BTW as it happens your post seemed completely free of any agenda unlike mines and many others of both the yes and no camps.

[Big Daz]

I have been in contact with a PEC member and they confirmed it was ES1 and ES2 only going into the supplement.

I have some members on the 2am to 4am shift allowance, so will continue to get it untill their pay protection expires which is this year.

Do i read that right Daz it's not contrabuting to the delivery supplement because there was no grandfather rights for these payments, just the 3 year MTSF arrangements?

No the allowance is alive and kicking, 4am starts went out the window with the 6am starts in 2007 for my D.O

Normal 3 year MTSF applied to those who went from 4am to 5 am and 6am

[opgpat]

The 'results' of the workshops are not likely to be a happy all round consensus. That's the big problem. If CWU say walk speed should be 2mph but RM say it should be 3.5 which one goes??????????????????????????????????????

The Agreement doesn't stipulate so the answer is RM speed goes. It's EA in all but name and the Agreement allows for it completely. Bottom line is we CAN'T trust RM, we've NEVER been able to trust them so the rules NEED TO BE IN BLACK AND WHITE before we sign.



btw I don't subscribe to the belief that capitals equate to SHOUTING. They don't in other written media so why on tinternet?

[k979aaa]

The 'results' of the workshops are not likely to be a happy all round consensus. That's the big problem. If CWU say walk speed should be 2mph but RM say it should be 3.5 which one goes??????????????????????????????????????

The Agreement doesn't stipulate so the answer is RM speed goes. It's EA in all but name and the Agreement allows for it completely. Bottom line is we CAN'T trust RM, we've NEVER been able to trust them so the rules NEED TO BE IN BLACK AND WHITE before we sign.



btw I don't subscribe to the belief that capitals equate to SHOUTING. They don't in other written media so why on tinternet?

I use it to highlight a point but i did have too many points at first!.

[andy2007]

the mail centre closure plan ???????

I don't think he wants to answer that one, or tell us about the RDC closure plans. He's too hung up on Delivery Posties problems. I know that they're facing far worse problems than us. But that's no reason to ignore us, and leave us without the information we so urgently need.

I think the problem is on the one hand they are trumpeting how they have secured prosperity and job security on the other hand they do not want to admit to the loss of jobs in Mail Centres and RDCs - you can't really have it both ways. There hasn't exactly been an explanation as to how the delivery 75/25% is going to be achieved when at present it is 79/21% full to part time ratio. I think they are hoping no one will keep asking and if they keep banging on what a good deal it is we will get fed up and vote YES.

You keep attacking the agreement but you fail to mention the facts on page 15 that the following applies : TO PROVIDE ONGOING CONFIDENCE, THE ROLL OUT OF THE NEW WORKPLAN AND ASSOCIATED CHANGES WILL BE SUBJECT OF JOINT NATIONAL REVIEWS TO ESTABLISH THAT THE OPERATIONAL ASSUMPTIONS WITHIN THE WORKPLAN SUPPORT THE CRITERIA DETAILED BELOW. AS PART OF THESE REVIEWS BOTH PARTIES COMMIT TO MAKE SUCH IMPROVEMENTS /ADJUSTMENTS AS ARE NECESSARY.
We've heard that one before! Unless we get something specific, to ensure that they honour this, it's meaningless. For example: We could have a clause which says that if these reviews aren't entered into in good faith, then all further action would be suspended, until an independant mediator was brought in.

. THAT MAIL ARRIVALS ARE CONSISTENT WITH THE TRANSFORMATION WORKPLAN AND SUPPORT AND ENABLE THE ATTENDANCE PATTERNS AND DUTY STRUCTURES CONTAINED IN THE FUNCTIONAL SECTIONS OF THIS AGREEMENT TO BE DELIVERED WITHIN THE WORKPLACE

. THAT THE OPERATIONAL TRANSFORMATION PROGRAMME AND ASSOCIATED WORKPLAN SUPPORT THE NATIONALLY PLANNED STAFFING MIX OF AROUND 75 PER CENT FULL TIME / 25 PER CENT PART TIME.

I think those give the union a strong committment as the workplan has to deliver those two objectives.

I agree that it looks good. But the fact is, that it's too ambiguous, and has no penalties for failure to enter into the reviews in good faith. Have you forgotten the problems with Phase 4 of the Pay & Mod Agreement?
There was always a plausible excuse for not begining it. And what about all the EA around the country?
Obviously, we can't have ANY agreement without a leap of faith. And I'm not suggesting that we should just ignore any promises from RM. That wouldn't achieve anything. We'd be stuck in a stalemate forever. But there SHOULD be some protection from the deal being abused. Particularly when resources are being removed, before the new equipment is up and running reliably.

That's been happening for a while already. Where's the protection from it continuing?

[belle smith]

I have been in contact with a PEC member and they confirmed it was ES1 and ES2 only going into the supplement.

I have some members on the 2am to 4am shift allowance, so will continue to get it untill their pay protection expires which is this year.

Do i read that right Daz it's not contrabuting to the delivery supplement because there was no grandfather rights for these payments, just the 3 year MTSF arrangements?

No the allowance is alive and kicking, 4am starts went out the window with the 6am starts in 2007 for my D.O

Normal 3 year MTSF applied to those who went from 4am to 5 am and 6am

Hows that diffrent from what i said, i would assume your office is the norm in losing it's 4 am starts.

[BELIAL]

More work for less pay ,hardly complicated,not too difficult to understand is it?

[MinisterofCucumber]

The truth said:

"Very few people on this board have been involved in high level negotations and even fewer have been involved in those negotations with ACAS assisting.

When you are involved a lot of time is spent in different rooms drafting words with ACAS going between the unions room and Royal Mail`s attempting to get the words agreed. Very often this leads to compromises on both sides to get the words which both parties can live with. Sometimes this leads to parts of an agreement reading both ways.

However this is where in the future Roger Poole and ACAS come into their own as they will oversee this agreement and they know why things were agreed and why things were worded in that way."

ACAS said:

"The wording of the agreement is the responsibility of the parties not Acas. I will forward your email to the company to respond.Regards Peter HarwoodChief Conciliator."

[smokerjim]

The truth said:

"Very few people on this board have been involved in high level negotations and even fewer have been involved in those negotations with ACAS assisting.

When you are involved a lot of time is spent in different rooms drafting words with ACAS going between the unions room and Royal Mail`s attempting to get the words agreed. Very often this leads to compromises on both sides to get the words which both parties can live with. Sometimes this leads to parts of an agreement reading both ways.

However this is where in the future Roger Poole and ACAS come into their own as they will oversee this agreement and they know why things were agreed and why things were worded in that way."

ACAS said:

"The wording of the agreement is the responsibility of the parties not Acas. I will forward your email to the company to respond.Regards Peter HarwoodChief Conciliator."

The above makes me very worried - as it should every Union member - 'cos if this crock agreement comes in, and I need the Union's help, will the Union pass the buck again...."It's perfectly kosher what your DOM has done - it's in the agreement, and you voted in!" "I voted NO - and told everyone else to vote NO as well!" "Well, that's democracy, sport - sometimes you get Obama, sometimes you get Hitler....sorry, and good luck with your job hunting, btw!"