Can we afford a No vote?

[smokerjim]

Do we really want a "sweetheart" Union, being the fag to the head boys, Brown & Cameron in RM House? I bloody don't, that's for certain.....if we had more people in 1940 like the Yes voters on here, then we'd have got Lord Halifax not Churchill in charge ( and he was one of the architects of appeasement....work out where that attitude would lead us in RM today ).

[pinstripe]

Do we really want a "sweetheart" Union

A 'sweetheart union', that sounds familiar. Is that like the one who say "Ooooh, you've got us really angry now! We're going to stamp our feet and moan (very quietly under our breath, just in case you hear us and give us a good spanking). Or the CMA as it is known.


RM love them, no need for the KY, they're slippery enough already.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Do we really want a "sweetheart" Union

A 'sweetheart union', that sounds familiar. Is that like the one who say "Ooooh, you've got us really angry now! We're going to stamp our feet and moan (very quietly under our breath, just in case you hear us and give us a good spanking). Or the CMA as it is known.


RM love them, no need for the KY, they're slippery enough already.

Ohh come on give them their due in November/December of 2009, the CMA did write a strongly worded letter. Although that does seem to the limit of their militancy.

[jack straw]

What do you mean 'can we afford a no vote'. We must vote NO, or we will all be out of pocket.


http://www.royalmailchat.co.uk/community/rules.php

[the beautiful bd south]

What do you mean 'can we afford a no vote'. We must vote NO, or we will all be out of pocket.


http://www.royalmailchat.co.uk/community/rules.php

A no vote will mean all back out on strike and all out of pocket..
If you believe that a no vote will mean we simply carry on with things as they are now think again.
Royal mail has already equipment/ vans / machines on order ready for new ways of working etc...
I can't see them letting all that stand idle whilst the union tries to negotiate a new deal.

I can see If it is a no vote the only way forward would be to deal with each function seperately.
An ideal situation for Royal Mail Divide and conquer brigade..

[opgpat]

I idon't think ANYONE is objecting to new machines, vans and equipment. We'd all welcome them, it's the other aspects of the agreement that we are voting NO to i.e indefinate paycuts, unlimited increase in d2ds and removal of payment for them, 3pm Saturday finishes, unlimited outside delivery time, achieve top 10% performance or be disciplined/sacked.

It really can't get worse than that under Tory privitisation. The only worst they could do would be an even bigger pay-cut and that would lead to mass revolt, mass IA and total chaos for the country - so it wouldn't happen. SO much of our economy relies on RM period that a massive paycut would be unachievable and unprecendented.

[Lincox]

Everyone has a choice in life. In 1939 our parents/grandparents had a choice to let Hitler invade our country. There are plenty of do gooders today such as those that tried to free Myra Hindley etc etc. The facts are that whether we accept this deal or not, Royal Mail will not change. We will still be subject to abuse, bullying harrassment and all the tactics we have seen in the last 5 years or more, and at the same time, many will be on lower incomes. CWU PEC have sanctioned an agreement that has not included any paragraphs that will stop RM management utilising the same tactics. There are no clauses to stop the irresponsible tactics of removing long term employees from the workforce by means of the Sickness rules and stages. I cannot see from this agreement one benefit for Delivery Post Men and Women.
We have a choice. My choice is to say No. I cannot see any benefit of voting yes, just to retain a Union that will only negotiate in the same way with the employer, even if we are eventually privatised. There was a massive opportunity for the CWU to have negotiated a sound pay deal for all, clauses that prevented Royal Mail from using tactics that have been akin to the dark ages, sensible duty spans etc etc. But no, they have given the employer, exactly what they want, just to stay in the workplace.
We do not have to cave in to this nonsense. We still have strength in numbers, and Royal Mail just cannot operate without our full co-operation. A yes vote is for the feable hearted, those without any guts for a fight. Those who would have Hitler trample all over us seventy years ago, and we would know be working for Deutsche Post. Thats if he had not exterminated all of our parents/grandparents.

[smokerjim]

Everyone has a choice in life. In 1939 our parents/grandparents had a choice to let Hitler invade our country. There are plenty of do gooders today such as those that tried to free Myra Hindley etc etc. The facts are that whether we accept this deal or not, Royal Mail will not change. We will still be subject to abuse, bullying harrassment and all the tactics we have seen in the last 5 years or more, and at the same time, many will be on lower incomes. CWU PEC have sanctioned an agreement that has not included any paragraphs that will stop RM management utilising the same tactics. There are no clauses to stop the irresponsible tactics of removing long term employees from the workforce by means of the Sickness rules and stages. I cannot see from this agreement one benefit for Delivery Post Men and Women.
We have a choice. My choice is to say No. I cannot see any benefit of voting yes, just to retain a Union that will only negotiate in the same way with the employer, even if we are eventually privatised. There was a massive opportunity for the CWU to have negotiated a sound pay deal for all, clauses that prevented Royal Mail from using tactics that have been akin to the dark ages, sensible duty spans etc etc. But no, they have given the employer, exactly what they want, just to stay in the workplace.
We do not have to cave in to this nonsense. We still have strength in numbers, and Royal Mail just cannot operate without our full co-operation. A yes vote is for the feable hearted, those without any guts for a fight. Those who would have Hitler trample all over us seventy years ago, and we would know be working for Deutsche Post. Thats if he had not exterminated all of our parents/grandparents.

[mucker]

Do you seriously think a No vote means everything stays as it is?

if We Get A No vote It will give Big Dave, A Mandate To Go Back To Manegement And Come Up With A worthwile Aggrement,Not A Crock Of Shite If WE Get A Yes Vote Kiss The CWU Goodbye, Last One Out Turn The Lights Off

[pickaname]

Nobody truly knows what will happen if we get a yes or a no vote

The agreement is so vague and complex it gives management freedoms they could only have dreampt of until now.

This is why Im voting no.

I want the agreement to anchor some of the core themes to practices. Not just vague soundbites open to interpretation (abuse).

[Night Tonic]

That happened a long while ago.

[jack straw]

What do you mean 'can we afford a no vote'. We must vote NO, or we will all be out of pocket.


http://www.royalmailchat.co.uk/community/rules.php

A no vote will mean all back out on strike and all out of pocket..
If you believe that a no vote will mean we simply carry on with things as they are now think again.
Royal mail has already equipment/ vans / machines on order ready for new ways of working etc...
I can't see them letting all that stand idle whilst the union tries to negotiate a new deal.

I can see If it is a no vote the only way forward would be to deal with each function seperately.
An ideal situation for Royal Mail Divide and conquer brigade..

If you think that argument convinces me to vote yes, then think again brother! Let the vans stand idle. Half these sorting machines they are supposed to have are fictional anyway. Those they have got cant read the letters in a postcode. (FACT).

[studmuffin]

Do you seriously think a No vote means everything stays as it is?

If it’s a no vote, we are finished {we are finished anyway when the Tories get in} it will be a question of how long you can stay out on strike for? How much money are you prepared to lose? they will walk all over you like before with ea, it will be the end of the union, and a much much quicker end to royal mail. I think a yes vote, like it or not, would still have the union in place when the BIG changes come in like, privatisation

Why oh why are people so defeatist.

if you think we are finished as a union or career, then vote with your head held high and with your principles and balls intact, because they are the last things that can be taken from us.

As for the tories, yes they will get in, yes they will attempt and succeed in part privatising us in the first instance and yes we will fight, whether thats as individual units (which appear to me to have a lot more clout than CWU HQ) or as a union largely depends on a no vote IMHO.

Who will stand in a year or two to take the tories on in a year or two, if we take this liberty now.

I dont think it will be the stormtroopers (activists), it will be left to members who vote YES now, and I dont think that they are upto a fight IMHO., if they were they would be saying no to a deal that fooks up so many of their comrades now.

You say that I am defeatist??? That’s just your opinion, and your entitled to that, don’t get me wrong, I like yourself, think the deal is a crock of shite, but I cannot see what we are going to possibly achieve by going out on strike again. I am a network driver based at ndc, which is supposed to be the flagship of ndc, when I was on the picket line last year, all I did was watch agency drivers drive in and out of ndc, all day long, it didn’t matter how many of us drivers sat on the picket line, management just flooded the place with agency, and they will do it again if we are on strike again

as a network driver, we will be first to be culled when royal mail is sold or part sold, I will be earning less in 3 years time, than I was 7 years ago. I will never cross a picket line and I will always support the union, but in this case the stakes are so high, you have to make the best of a bad situation, if we are back on strike, it will be a rapid end of the cwu, and then we will be in trouble when we are sold off, I know it sounds like im waving the white flag, I am not, i am looking at it from a realist point of view

[Lincox]

Studmuffin, thats exactly what you are doing, is waving the white flag, like most defeatist do. There is an alternative. Royal Mail cannot replace 150,000 experienced workers with 150,000 agency workers. We have the right to fight for decent terms and conditions of employment, decent pay, professional health and safety conditions, the right to be treated as human beings. When Royal Mail start thinking as a professional organisation and introduce what I have previously stated, they will have a workforce that will be the envy of any organisation, and a company fit for the future. They already have a workforce that has stood for endless crap in recent years and yet have still worked professionally against enormous odds. What will happen if we suddenly have a professional management, that respects us and in turn we can respect them. The results for Royal Mail could be massive. I say the fight must be taken to the sole shareholder, the government and lobby, lobby and lobby again, until they sit up and listen. With a forthcoming election, there is no better time. This does not have to mean strike action, as I agree that this could be counter productive, but we have so many other tools available to us, to make this irresponsible company change for the better.

[dvbuk55]

No more phantomshare then - he has his own agenda and it doesn't include working postmen and women.