A question especially for Lovejoy or The Truth!

[lovejoy]

Lovejoy wrote
"On top of this RMs starting point has moved to them saying that 92% of the UK will not have to work later than 2pm on a Sat and if we are honest the majority of the 8% left (very rural areas) already work until 3 (and sometimes later) on a Saturday anyway."

Can you explain the feasability of this if saturday is to be treated as a normal working day?
I am probably one of the usual suspects but i will attempt to aviod twisting anything.

because if you don't need to finish at 3 on a saturday then you may not have to finisg at 3 on anyday!

[Spartacus]

I thank you for this, why is it left to you to have to explain the basics in layman's terms.

I need the CWU to go back and negotiate a guarantee that this "£40m of D2D contracts" extra income makes some way back to those who deliver them. So a % increase (extra) for the new business generated needs to be fought for. If the new D2D business doesn't appear then we get no extra monies! The offer so far seems to be a snapshot in time with nothing taken in to account of the increase Delivery workers are expected to do.

Sorry I left that bit out and more but that was off the top of my head. I will add to it when I have agreement in front of me and some time.

In relation to your point RM have agreed to quarterly d2d meetings where growth will be examined. The ultimate aim of this payment is to get it into basic pay and make it pensionable.

I should also point out that one of the other benefits of a supplement is that it rises with pay - unlike d2d which has been 1.67 since 1995.

If we were to put the delivery supplement into basic pay, would that be across the workforce which would reduce the supplement or would it be delivery staff only which gives us a two tier pay rate?

I don't expect you to know the answer to be honest LJ, but what would be your thoughts on that?

[Just_My_Opinion]

Firstly I would like to say a massive thank you to you lovejoy for a very detailed and informative reply.

I'm not suggesting you have sold me the agreement but you have indeed give me food for thought.

We all want a stable and secure job for the future. If D2D contracts are the way to do it then surely as someone has suggested we should benefit from these lucrative new contacts and not be punished for it.

Or is the truth that if delivery staff were to gain financially from D2D's there is a chance we would be jeopardizing jobs in other parts of the company?

You have to understand lovejoy, losing 18 days pay with a house and family to keep for the end result in essence to lose money in your weekly pay and work harder for it seems like a serious kick in the teeth.

Perhaps if we were to get around the £30 mark extra a week which would include D2D items and shift allowances we might actually feel we have gained something. Not very much of a gain but a hell of a lot more than we have on the table at the minute.

I don't envy for one minute the situation the CWU are in. However surely they have to justify to their members why they lost £100's for strike action. This agreement I'm afraid in my own personal opinion falls short of that mark.

I'm still open to have my mind changed though as you seem like a knowledgeable and intelligent person. I feel I could have a mature and adult debate about the whole situation.

[lovejoy]

I think that is a very credible post lovejoy, infact you almost made it sound like a good deal for a minute. I think the trouble with the union we have is the never ask us what we want and fight for the wrong things, most of the higher union reps dont do a walk and are out of touch with how hard the job really is these days and think its a good deal for us to pile more work on us with later finish times on a saturday. What happens to all those people with season tickets? will royal mail refund them?

8% will work past 2. In the real world of deliveries as you highlight most have their meal reliefs at the end so thats 1.20 last letter for those...... if it takes you more than 1 hr 40 mins to get to the game then you should start supporting your local team

[lovejoy]

I thank you for this, why is it left to you to have to explain the basics in layman's terms.

I need the CWU to go back and negotiate a guarantee that this "£40m of D2D contracts" extra income makes some way back to those who deliver them. So a % increase (extra) for the new business generated needs to be fought for. If the new D2D business doesn't appear then we get no extra monies! The offer so far seems to be a snapshot in time with nothing taken in to account of the increase Delivery workers are expected to do.

Sorry I left that bit out and more but that was off the top of my head. I will add to it when I have agreement in front of me and some time.

In relation to your point RM have agreed to quarterly d2d meetings where growth will be examined. The ultimate aim of this payment is to get it into basic pay and make it pensionable.

I should also point out that one of the other benefits of a supplement is that it rises with pay - unlike d2d which has been 1.67 since 1995.

If we were to put the delivery supplement into basic pay, would that be across the workforce which would reduce the supplement or would it be delivery staff only which gives us a two tier pay rate?

I don't expect you to know the answer to be honest LJ, but what would be your thoughts on that?

It would be for delivery staff - we already have different pay rates - professional drivers etc. Any move to share it out would be met with major opposition and there is no way I would ever support that

[numan]

SHORTER WORKING WEEK

Many members will say 'whats the point in an hour' - well this will save jobs in deliveries it's as simple as that - when couple with d2d into workload it will have a massive effect.

As nobody has yet explained how the 39 hr week is going to be implemented, it remains to be seen how much of an effect it will have. Many offices already work shorter Tuesdays, so if that's where the hour is going to come off, I don't see it having too much of an impact. As for D2Ds into workload, many of us already use the 20% prep time we're currently allowed. This new deal is still committed to a percentage daily delivery, this will now be over 6 days, meaning that the floating duty is included, which to be precise means 16.66% daily. To say these factors will have a "massive" effect is surely an overstatement.

[coxie]

i think the new suppliment is a good idea but i think £20.60 is too low for what we will be giving up in return, i think £30 would have been fair. Also do you know if we will still get paid extra for election leaflets? or will they be included into the workload

[fishtank]

Lovejoy wrote
"On top of this RMs starting point has moved to them saying that 92% of the UK will not have to work later than 2pm on a Sat and if we are honest the majority of the 8% left (very rural areas) already work until 3 (and sometimes later) on a Saturday anyway."

Can you explain the feasability of this if saturday is to be treated as a normal working day?
I am probably one of the usual suspects but i will attempt to aviod twisting anything.

because if you don't need to finish at 3 on a saturday then you may not have to finisg at 3 on anyday!

Are you telling me 92% of staff will stay at a 2pm finishing time Lovejoy.
So RM have negotiated a change to the last letter time and don't intend to use it.

[lovejoy]

Firstly I would like to say a massive thank you to you lovejoy for a very detailed and informative reply.

I'm not suggesting you have sold me the agreement but you have indeed give me food for thought.

We all want a stable and secure job for the future. If D2D contracts are the way to do it then surely as someone has suggested we should benefit from these lucrative new contacts and not be punished for it.

Or is the truth that if delivery staff were to gain financially from D2D's there is a chance we would be jeopardizing jobs in other parts of the company?

You have to understand lovejoy, losing 18 days pay with a house and family to keep for the end result in essence to lose money in your weekly pay and work harder for it seems like a serious kick in the teeth.

Perhaps if we were to get around the £30 mark extra a week which would include D2D items and shift allowances we might actually feel we have gained something. Not very much of a gain but a hell of a lot more than we have on the table at the minute.

I don't envy for one minute the situation the CWU are in. However surely if they have to justify to their members why they lost £100's for strike action. This agreement I'm afraid in my own personal opinion falls short of that mark.

I'm still open to have my mind changed though as you seem like a knowledgeable and intelligent person. I feel I could have a mature and adult debate about the whole situation.

No worries - look I am not overwhelmed with the 20.60 either but I suppose from the officers point of view at some point they had to settle and go to the members. I agree with your £30 fugure as well but I suppose 97,000 £10s would completely change the financial position of RMs plan.

I 100% understand the upset of those who will lose but all I will say is just take the time to read everything, and look at where we have come from.

If this deal goes right then delivery staff have the best of the lot. They will have a fair job with a fair workload. Despite MC and RDC staff being happy with the finances it is a fact that 50% of them will be having theie units closed. I feel that in 12months we'll be viewing this situation in a very different way.

[dvbuk55]

Well I'd take anything Lovejoy pimped with a pinch of salt - he advocated the 2007 deal with all its pomp and ceremony - ACAS - absolute bullshit, they are not going to be involved once paper is signed, nor should they be, we pay this union to deal with agreements and to see that they are adhered to. So what exactly are ACAS going to do, smack legs, initiate penalties, neither! they will do FA. As for the revision workshops - will they be before or after the deal is agreed. There are some on here who stand to gain more from advocating the deal than telling the truth.

[lovejoy]

i think the new suppliment is a good idea but i think £20.60 is too low for what we will be giving up in return, i think £30 would have been fair. Also do you know if we will still get paid extra for election leaflets? or will they be included into the workload

Election material will still be paid and there is a meeting this week to tie up the loose ends there.

[banner18]

Very interesting reading lovejoy. I generally agree with the points you have made although I do still have some concerns regarding the agreement.
One of them is no cap on delivery spans. I understand that they are going to be agreed locally, but what is to stop managers abusing the no span limit when there is high sickness, work left over from another day etc.. All we would have is some kind of trust that managers wouldn't treat posties like that and send them out early with an extra 2 hours delivery plus their 4 and half hour duty? We all know how some people can act under pressure. Surely there has to be some kind of built in assurance that no-one will be expected to do more than say 5 hours 30 minutes or something?

D2D was supposed to be built into workload before, but in reality never really happened. They really have made a blunder regarding D2D. All payments should have ceased and they should have ringfenced the money into a basic payrise. That would have sent out a much clearer message about D2D being a part of normal mail. With it still being a separate payment, managers will still think that the old methods of allowing posties to absorb will work applies, because posties will be too scared to cut off etc etc...
They have made no promises about automating D2D. It therefore has me thinking, how will they adjust the hours for prep when one week we get 4 D2D, then the next week we get 8 or 9? Also delivering 8 or 9 takes a little longer than 4 lots.

I want to agree to this deal, but there is more to this than just trusting RM. You are right in saying that D2D into workload will cost RM X amount of money and this has me thinking what the catch is, especially in the short term whilst D2D have not been increased?

Surely it wouldn't be that hard, or costly, to settle these few points.....?

[lovejoy]

Lovejoy wrote
"On top of this RMs starting point has moved to them saying that 92% of the UK will not have to work later than 2pm on a Sat and if we are honest the majority of the 8% left (very rural areas) already work until 3 (and sometimes later) on a Saturday anyway."

Can you explain the feasability of this if saturday is to be treated as a normal working day?
I am probably one of the usual suspects but i will attempt to aviod twisting anything.

because if you don't need to finish at 3 on a saturday then you may not have to finisg at 3 on anyday!

Are you telling me 92% of staff will stay at a 2pm finishing time Lovejoy.
So RM have negotiated a change to the last letter time and don't intend to use it.

The last letter time is currently 2pm......... tens of thousands of members don't work to that time. The arrival pattern is the driver. It is also worth noting that no changes will be made to start/finish times until your walk sequencing revision which in some cases is 2013

[Judgee]

ok so RM lost £40 million turning away D2Ds last year so there is an easy answer without this new proposed option....


REMOVE THE D2D CAP!!!!!!!!!

That's all it needs, it doesn't need to be integrated at all. People who want to deliver the crap can earn as much as they like out of them. In my office there is always an army of D2D deliverers ready and willing to pump as much of that shite throughs doors as the RM can throw at them!

People who want them keep earning. people who don't want them can carry on without them and the RM don't have to turn away work is that so hard to do?

[hertsman0]

Thankyou lovejoy for the explanation of the agreement.We have to take in the whole thing of what the union has agreed ie no compulsory redundancies which might have been the case without putting D2D into work load.I dont like the thought of loosing the early shift and seperate D2D payment but can see some thinking behind it.