A question for Dingo, Lovejoy or The Truth:

[BELIAL]

As many of you know, I have made strong criticisms of the union on here (and gained no friends in so doing) but I am no fan of the CWU and thats the way it is. However (oddly) I am with Lovejoy and Truth on this, there is no option B. There are always alternatives (ie suicide to living) but it doesn't make it a sensible or logical choice and we face unprecedented change, not just in RM but in the entire business. "I want to join another union" and "have it out with the leaders" is all wasted piffle and lacks understanding of just how hard both sides have worked on this to protect jobs and gain more cwu involvement. Everyone is entitled to vote as they wish but you also have to weigh up the consequences of whatever choice you make.

I think that tells you all you need to know about this proposed deal Cheers for once tonic

[singingpostman]

So the national union will just 'go back in with acas and re-negotiate'

I'll tell you what I won't respond to this because its unbelievable.

If you really want a debate PM me your office and I can see my reps and hopefully they can get someone up to you for a face to face debate.

Seems a bit like its my ball and if you don't play how I want then I'm taking it home.

[Dogs of War]

It seems to me that its the CWU way or no way. Are they forgetting who pays there wages.

[fishtank]

It seems to me that its the CWU way or no way. Are they forgetting who pays there wages.

Indeed they have forgotten who finances the union.
But if this deal is forced through by the kind of strong armed tactics applied by Lovejoy earlier in the thread then they better find another way of supporting themselves.
Maybe a second job flippin burgers at McDs.
That reminds me where is T-man.

[island_boy]

some posters on here are asking why there is no fall back plan ie option B

well if you think about it there cant really be an option B

the negotiators whether or not you think they have done a piss poor job have brought back a proposal, lets call it proposal A, if they had back up plan lets call it proposal B, if they turned round and said we fought hard but couldnt gain much ground we have managed to get an agreement lets vote on it, but we have got a better proposal B which RM wont agree to, so in effect the members would either be voting Yes for Proposal A or No for Proposal B which would leave the people who would be disatisfied with both options no where to vote as a no vote could be seen as an endorsment for Proposal B, so guess what they would probably do, not vote for either giving a better chance for proposal A to go through, just think people should be asking for the back up plan, you can only fight whats in front of you, the Agreement as it stands should be fought either for or against, once that battle has been won then thnk about the next one!

[numan]

some posters on here are asking why there is no fall back plan ie option B

well if you think about it there cant really be an option B

the negotiators whether or not you think they have done a piss poor job have brought back a proposal, lets call it proposal A, if they had back up plan lets call it proposal B, if they turned round and said we fought hard but couldnt gain much ground we have managed to get an agreement lets vote on it, but we have got a better proposal B which RM wont agree to, so in effect the members would either be voting Yes for Proposal A or No for Proposal B which would leave the people who would be disatisfied with both options no where to vote as a no vote could be seen as an endorsment for Proposal B, so guess what they would probably do, not vote for either giving a better chance for proposal A to go through, just think people should be asking for the back up plan, you can only fight whats in front of you, the Agreement as it stands should be fought either for or against, once that battle has been won then thnk about the next one!

Let's not make things complicated by introducing a plan C, a simple A or B is straight forward enough.

[Darren]

One option B to me would be make the delivery supplement non Pro Rata - OK I would loose up to £3 a week on the current offer but I was going to loose (£42-£21.60) approx £20 a week anyway.

The delivery side of deliveries is the same whether full time or part time so why should I as a FT get more of this supplement than a PT.

I personally think that Callers Office work is harder than Delivery so I won't begrudge them getting the supplement but I am sure they could bring in skills related supplement as well and make the Delivery Supplement available only to deliveries. The current plan is making it a Delivery Office Supplement which is a different animal entirely.

Also under flexibility do MC and Distribution staff get it paid pro rata if they have to work in a DO. Do workers in a combined DO/MC who work inside all get it or only those filling an inside DO role. All questions that I have not yet found an answer to.

Why should the full time delivery staff lose more money, on average we are losing £20 a week and you want to give another £3 away!!! Part timers payment for D2D should be the same as ours but bring theirs up to our payment level.

If they made the supplement £30+ per week for all staff that do D2D's then it would be worth considering, leaving only the later Saturdays to sort out.. and of course the pension..

[DirtyHarry]

As many of you know, I have made strong criticisms of the union on here (and gained no friends in so doing) but I am no fan of the CWU and thats the way it is. However (oddly) I am with Lovejoy and Truth on this, there is no option B. There are always alternatives (ie suicide to living) but it doesn't make it a sensible or logical choice and we face unprecedented change, not just in RM but in the entire business. "I want to join another union" and "have it out with the leaders" is all wasted piffle and lacks understanding of just how hard both sides have worked on this to protect jobs and gain more cwu involvement. Everyone is entitled to vote as they wish but you also have to weigh up the consequences of whatever choice you make.

If you're with Lovejoy & Truth, then we really do know we've been stitched up good and proper. Cheers NT.

[island_boy]

some posters on here are asking why there is no fall back plan ie option B

well if you think about it there cant really be an option B

the negotiators whether or not you think they have done a piss poor job have brought back a proposal, lets call it proposal A, if they had back up plan lets call it proposal B, if they turned round and said we fought hard but couldnt gain much ground we have managed to get an agreement lets vote on it, but we have got a better proposal B which RM wont agree to, so in effect the members would either be voting Yes for Proposal A or No for Proposal B which would leave the people who would be disatisfied with both options no where to vote as a no vote could be seen as an endorsment for Proposal B, so guess what they would probably do, not vote for either giving a better chance for proposal A to go through, just think people should be asking for the back up plan, you can only fight whats in front of you, the Agreement as it stands should be fought either for or against, once that battle has been won then thnk about the next one!

Let's not make things complicated by introducing a plan C, a simple A or B is straight forward enough.

i am not saying there should be a plan C, in fact i am saying the opposite, Plan A YES or NO to that then if we get the NO then we come up with Plan B, there is no point arguing about a plan B the now all the affort should be on getting people to vote NO or yes to the current agreement!

[Just_My_Opinion]

As many of you know, I have made strong criticisms of the union on here (and gained no friends in so doing) but I am no fan of the CWU and thats the way it is. However (oddly) I am with Lovejoy and Truth on this, there is no option B. There are always alternatives (ie suicide to living) but it doesn't make it a sensible or logical choice and we face unprecedented change, not just in RM but in the entire business. "I want to join another union" and "have it out with the leaders" is all wasted piffle and lacks understanding of just how hard both sides have worked on this to protect jobs and gain more cwu involvement. Everyone is entitled to vote as they wish but you also have to weigh up the consequences of whatever choice you make.

If you're with Lovejoy & Truth, then we really do know we've been stitched up good and proper. Cheers NT.

If there is no alternative to a pay cut and more work then I think it's about time my £156.52 a year went to a better cause.

[numan]

some posters on here are asking why there is no fall back plan ie option B

well if you think about it there cant really be an option B

the negotiators whether or not you think they have done a piss poor job have brought back a proposal, lets call it proposal A, if they had back up plan lets call it proposal B, if they turned round and said we fought hard but couldnt gain much ground we have managed to get an agreement lets vote on it, but we have got a better proposal B which RM wont agree to, so in effect the members would either be voting Yes for Proposal A or No for Proposal B which would leave the people who would be disatisfied with both options no where to vote as a no vote could be seen as an endorsment for Proposal B, so guess what they would probably do, not vote for either giving a better chance for proposal A to go through, just think people should be asking for the back up plan, you can only fight whats in front of you, the Agreement as it stands should be fought either for or against, once that battle has been won then thnk about the next one!

Let's not make things complicated by introducing a plan C, a simple A or B is straight forward enough.

i am not saying there should be a plan C, in fact i am saying the opposite, Plan A YES or NO to that then if we get the NO then we come up with Plan B, there is no point arguing about a plan B the now all the affort should be on getting people to vote NO or yes to the current agreement!

I see what you're saying but the CWU leadership will peddle this nonsense of there being no alternative (as they have done on all the other agreements), in order to scare the members into voting YES, this has to be counteracted by those of us proposing a NO vote.

[Night Tonic]

Dirtyharry, you know as well as anyone how far I am from the CWU and you should also know that it remains the case. More telling is that those who are poles apart are saying the same thing and if you really think this deal is a 'stitch up' if it means more of those around you are likely to hang on to their jobs, then you really are in it for your own interests, not whether the CWU has fought hard for what has been gained or whether it will benefit others.

[DirtyHarry]

If there is no alternative to a pay cut and more work then I think it's about time my £156.52 a year went to a better cause.

I'm afraid, I have to say, too bloody right, mate.
A union that negotiates with your employer ways in which your quality time away from the shithole that is RM can be banjaxed, and also how an intolerably stressful job complete with unrealistic workload can be made even worse, is not a union worth having.
I have been a union member all my working life, 30 years, but a divorce is in the offing, I wish it weren't, but there it is.
Just a symptom of 21st century life, I guess.

[fishtank]

If there is no alternative to a pay cut and more work then I think it's about time my £156.52 a year went to a better cause.

And that should put an end to the argument because that is the feeling unfortunately of many of our members.
People can come on here all day long and talk about stability and protecting full-time jobs and no plan B and the union having a say in the workplace.
But the bottom line is membership levels.

No members....No stability.
No members....No job security
No members....No say in the workplace
No members....No union.
Last one out switch off the lights.

[Just_My_Opinion]

If there is no alternative to a pay cut and more work then I think it's about time my £156.52 a year went to a better cause.

I'm afraid, I have to say, too bloody right, mate.
A union that negotiates with your employer ways in which your quality time away from the shithole that is RM can be banjaxed, and also how an intolerably stressful job complete with unrealistic workload can be made even worse, is not a union worth having.
I have been a union member all my working life, 30 years, but a divorce is in the offing, I wish it weren't, but there it is.
Just a symptom of 21st century life, I guess.

A divorce you say? Does that mean I get half of EVERYTHING the CWU owns??? LoL